Russian copy?

[Pyrogallol]

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Interesting. I did not realise there were differences, like the earlier and later Leica tops. My 1939 is the same shape as your 1941.

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[willeica]

The terms 'fake' and 'copy' are often used interchangeably in respect of this subject. A 'Fake Leica' is a camera which purports to be a Leica while a 'Leica Copy' is a camera which is based on a Leica, but carries the name of another manufacturer, most usually an LTM model. Leitz/Leica took out copyrights on its designs, but never, as far as I can ascertain, took any legal actions for breach of copyright. The hallway of the Leica HQ in Wetzlar contains examples of 'Fake Leicas' and 'Leica Copies' in glass cases. In recent times rare and early FSU ( Former Soviet  Union) cameras have been fetching large sums of money, much larger than the sums paid for Leicas of a similar vintage. If anyone cares to look at the Russian Cameras section of the forthcoming Leitz Auction you can note that all of the items except one have already got bids in, which is higher in terms of 'percentage with bids' than other categories, including the Leicas. The item without a bid is a KGB outfit, but maybe all of the potential bidders in that section already have one of those.

The point I am making is that the days of Leica collectors looking down on 'Leica Copies', particularly FSU items, are long since gone. Some people here, such as Philip ( pippy), have very nice collections of FSU cameras and seem to have bought wisely.

William 

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[jaapv]

What I am missing is the "the making of a fake Leica" bit on YouTube or an article. There must be an underworld where it makes sense to indulge in so much work for such small returns.

[AndreasG]

vor 34 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

What I am missing is the "the making of a fake Leica" bit on YouTube or an article. There must be an underworld where it makes sense to indulge in so much work for such small returns.

If you are not overly demanding, here is the instruction:

https://www.instructables.com/How-to-Leica-ify-a-20-camera/

[pippy]

2 hours ago, Pyrogallol said:

Interesting. I did not realise there were differences, like the earlier and later Leica tops. My 1939 is the same shape as your 1941.

The FED-1 cameras had numerous changes - sometimes very minor; sometimes only a handful built - introduced throughout their whole production history. As an example the Sovietcams website shows no fewer than 14 different variations of the 1934-1935 FED-1 (model A) before the 6,000th camera had been built!

As far as my cameras and your camera are concerned; the '36 pictured is a model B (1935-37; 15 versions listed!) and the engraving reads, in part, 'Kommuna' (I don't have Cyrillic keypad but the second line of engraving resembles something like "TPYAKOMMYHa"). My particular version is listed as being PEO190. For the other two cameras (model D; 1939-41; 6 versions) the top-plate carried different engravings - one being that 'Kommuna' was changed to 'Kombinat' - now seen on the 4th line.

Your particular camera is listed as being type-D variant PEO250 whereas mine is a PEO260. The big difference (as far as I have read) is that the film pressure-plate in your camera will still feature the hole through which non-standardised Leica bodies could be calibrated; when FED decided to replicate the Leica 1 they really did their homework! By the time mine was built they had realised that this feature wasn't exactly neccessary. In fact the '36 PEO190 (pictured earlier) was the first FED variant to have dispensed with the corresponding 'circular plug' on the rear of the body

The number of FED-1 versions is currently listed as being a rather staggering fifty-five(!) which, considering they are all based on one Leica model - the II (Model-D) - seems quite remarkable.

If you are looking for a fascinating Rabbit-Hole into which you might wish to jump here's the relevant link;

http://sovietcams.com/indexeb86.html?tmpl_into=middle&tmpl_id=279&_m_e_id=16&_menu_i_id=87

Philip.

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by pippy

[pippy]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

Leitz/Leica took out copyrights on its designs, but never, as far as I can ascertain, took any legal actions for breach of copyright...

As far as I can remember, William, the reason for this post-WWII was due to the fact that all German copyrights were declared as being Null and Void at the end of the conflict as part of war reparations.

I could be wrong but I suspect that pre-WWII it might have been very difficult to attempt to take FED to court (the acronym comes from the initials of Felix Edmundovitch Dzerzhinski - director of the CCCP's Joint State Political Directorate and creator of the KGB!) as it would, in effect, have been to take on the whole political force of the Soviet Union itself.

Philip.

Edited June 3, 2021 by pippy

[odoardo]

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I'm reading all this with interest. Thank you all for sharing your knowledge.

[TomB_tx]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

As far as I can remember, William, the reason for this post-WWII was due to the fact that all German copyrights were declared as being Null and Void at the end of the conflict as part of war reparations.

I could be wrong but I suspect that pre-WWII it might have been very difficult to attempt to take FED to court (the acronym comes from the initials of Felix Edmundovitch Dzerzhinski - director of the CCCP's Joint State Political Directorate and creator of the KGB!) as it would, in effect, have been to take on the whole political force of the Soviet Union itself.

Philip.

Probably right about pre-WWII and FED. However, when the early Canon (Kwanon) prototypes were made in the mid 1930s Leitz patents were a concern in Japan, so they had to get around the Leitz VF/RF designs, such as by having the VF pop-up above the housing, out of the RF path. But by post WWII they could more closely copy the Leitz method.

[zeitz]

21 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

they had to get around the Leitz VF/RF designs, such as by having the VF pop-up above the housing, out of the RF path

The lens mount/focusing wheel modifications were also made to further distance pre-war/wartime Canon cameras from Leica cameras.

22 minutes ago, TomB_tx said:

But by post WWII they could more closely copy the Leitz method.

As Pippy says, the Allies voided German patents at the end of the war.

3 hours ago, pippy said:

all German copyrights were declared as being Null and Void

I believe the German patents were still enforced in West Germany itself.

4 hours ago, willeica said:

never, as far as I can ascertain, took any legal actions for breach of copyright.

Pont and Princelle in their book "300 Leica Copies" on page 76 mentions Foica/Foizica/Unca cameras made by Feinmechanische Werktatte where Leica complaints led to the first name change and then discontinuing of manufacture because of the shutter design.

[Pyrogallol]

6 hours ago, pippy said:

The FED-1 cameras had numerous changes - sometimes very minor; sometimes only a handful built - introduced throughout their whole production history. As an example the Sovietcams website shows no fewer than 14 different variations of the 1934-1935 FED-1 (model A) before the 6,000th camera had been built!

As far as my cameras and your camera are concerned; the '36 pictured is a model B (1935-37; 15 versions listed!) and the engraving reads, in part, 'Kommuna' (I don't have Cyrillic keypad but the second line of engraving resembles something like "TPYAKOMMYHa"). My particular version is listed as being PEO190. For the other two cameras (model D; 1939-41; 6 versions) the top-plate carried different engravings - one being that 'Kommuna' was changed to 'Kombinat' - now seen on the 4th line.

Your particular camera is listed as being type-D variant PEO250 whereas mine is a PEO260. The big difference (as far as I have read) is that the film pressure-plate in your camera will still feature the hole through which non-standardised Leica bodies could be calibrated; when FED decided to replicate the Leica 1 they really did their homework! By the time mine was built they had realised that this feature wasn't exactly neccessary. In fact the '36 PEO190 (pictured earlier) was the first FED variant to have dispensed with the corresponding 'circular plug' on the rear of the body

The number of FED-1 versions is currently listed as being a rather staggering fifty-five(!) which, considering they are all based on one Leica model - the II (Model-D) - seems quite remarkable.

If you are looking for a fascinating Rabbit-Hole into which you might wish to jump here's the relevant link;

http://sovietcams.com/indexeb86.html?tmpl_into=middle&tmpl_id=279&_m_e_id=16&_menu_i_id=87

Philip.

 

Thanks for confirming my identifying it as a 1d PEO250 from the sovietcams website. I bought it as what I considered the best of a small group of FEDs in a photographic auction, before covid, when you could go to a real auction. It is running ok and the FED lens is quite good since I cleaned some heavy haze by unscrewing the front element block.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Pyrogallol

[pippy]

57 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

Thanks for confirming my identifying it as a 1d PEO250 from the sovietcams website. I bought it as what I considered the best of a small group of FEDs in a photographic auction, before covid, when you could go to a real auction. It is running ok and the FED lens is quite good since I cleaned some heavy haze by unscrewing the front element block.

I'm glad to hear that you are happy with the camera. I have a few examples of the FED-1 representing various different models and they are all sweet little things with, sometimes, their own little quirks!

Philip.

[willeica]

4 hours ago, zeitz said:

Pont and Princelle in their book "300 Leica Copies" on page 76 mentions Foica/Foizica/Unca cameras made by Feinmechanische Werktatte where Leica complaints led to the first name change and then discontinuing of manufacture because of the shutter design.

Thanks. There is a lot more to this. The Soviets cancelled Western patents after the Revolution. After WWII the Allies cancelled Axis patents and, of course, a lot of Japanese companies then produced Leica copies* which was somewhat ironic. The British also did this with the Reid. Irrespective of cancelled patents, the LTM design was copied between 1934 and the late 1950s, but I can find no case where Leitz/Leica took actual legal action to prevent manufacture of any of the multitude of copies of Barnack's design and it's associated features. Leica AG now rightly and proudly  celebrates the influence of Barnack's wonderful design.

William 

* There was, of course, the Canon Hansa design prior to WWII. 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

...The Soviets cancelled Western patents after the Revolution...

Ah! That's something I wasn't aware of so thank-you William!

Just FWIW; after some remarks you made quite recently I did, finally, track down a copy of J-L Princelle's 'Authentic Guide to Russian and Soviet Cameras - 2nd Edition' and am slowly digesting much new info as a result!

Philip.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pippy said:

Ah! That's something I wasn't aware of so thank-you William!

Just FWIW; after some remarks you made quite recently I did, finally, track down a copy of J-L Princelle's 'Authentic Guide to Russian and Soviet Cameras - 2nd Edition' and am slowly digesting much new info as a result!

Philip.

Thanks Philip. Will PM you an article I did a couple of years ago for the UK Leica Society about Fake Leicas and Leica Copies.

William 

[tranquilo67]

On 5/29/2021 at 4:35 PM, odoardo said:

Was this all Russian amateur homework or  some sort of organized ( factory? ) work..?

I've read about organized work on faking but I cannot remember if it was in the factory. I'll try to search it. Anyway, even when there're some that are clearly an amateur work, many of the fakes are extremely similar if not equal and that points to an organized business around that.

On 5/31/2021 at 6:19 AM, rfaspen said:

Wow.  Is that a vulture engraving? 

I vote for chicken!!

Anyway, I can hardly understand the people that is questioning the authenticity of these surrealistic and bad taste fakes.

I opened a thread about my completely unmarked Luftwaffe camera and lens. One of the goals of that post was to show a real thing that is exactly the opposite to the usual fakes that are for sale with all sorts of engravings. I know that mine is an extreme case, but once more I find difficult to understand people even considering the remote possibility they could be authentic.

I see it much more easy. If you want a real military Leica, go to a trusted dealer (Leicashop, Tamarkin or Red Dot Cameras) and buy it. There is other option that is to invest years and money in books, have the opportunity of handling tenths of samples and then you'll be able to properly identify them by yourself. The first option is cheaper for sure.

Sorry for being so direct.

Best wishes and stay safe,

Augusto

[willeica]

On 6/3/2021 at 10:33 AM, pippy said:

I could be wrong but I suspect that pre-WWII it might have been very difficult to attempt to take FED to court (the acronym comes from the initials of Felix Edmundovitch Dzerzhinski - director of the CCCP's Joint State Political Directorate and creator of the KGB!) as it would, in effect, have been to take on the whole political force of the Soviet Union itself.

Did I send you the link with the story where the staff in Russia were told that they were going to 'produce a Leica'? They ended up producing the FED, of course. The FED is not a Fake Leica, it is a Leica Copy, but so are cameras like the Japanese made Leotax and the British made Reid. I am happy to send a copy of my article to anyone who still finds this confusing.

William

[pippy]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Did I send you the link with the story where the staff in Russia were told that they were going to 'produce a Leica'? They ended up producing the FED, of course. The FED is not a Fake Leica, it is a Leica Copy, but so are cameras like the Japanese made Leotax and the British made Reid. I am happy to send a copy of my article to anyone who still finds this confusing.

William

Hello, William, and yes you did. I also replied to your message the following day (Friday). Did you not get the message as a PM?

If not then I will send it again.

Philip.

Edited June 8, 2021 by pippy

[nf3996]

15 hours ago, willeica said:

I am happy to send a copy of my article to anyone who still finds this confusing.

William

William, I'd be most grateful for a copy of your article, please.

Alan

[willeica]

15 hours ago, pippy said:

Hello, William, and yes you did. I also replied to your message the following day (Friday). Did you not get the message as a PM?

If not then I will send it again.

Philip.

Thanks Philip I got your PM. You have a really nice FSU collection. I mentioned to someone else this morning that the entry of well heeled Russian collectors has really boosted the value of such cameras. I might add that they really know their cameras and would not be caught out by fakes. Soviet Cams should have a Leica equivalent as there is nothing comparable.

William 

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Hallo,

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[willeica]

3 hours ago, nf3996 said:

William, I'd be most grateful for a copy of your article, please.

Alan

I've sent it to you just now.

William