Complementary camera to the M10?

[mmradman]

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1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

Pictures or it never happened.

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[mmradman]

Plus some fire power, ain’t Texas big yet mighty.

 

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[jdlaing]

Not pictures of the gear. Pictures TAKEN WITH THE GEAR.

[mmradman]

8 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Not pictures of the gear. Pictures TAKEN WITH THE GEAR.

Feel free to browse on M lens section, I have posted several since acquiring Z7.

[martinot]

On 5/25/2021 at 3:28 PM, startover said:

Hi all, like many of you, I am committed to the Leica M system (have an M10, a film MP, multiple 21-28-35-50-90 lenses, etc.).  But I have recently had a yearning for video and zoom.  One option is to get the Leica SL2 but it is both very large and expensive.  The TL2 and CL seem a bit dated.  Have any of you had a similar need to complement your M10 with a, dare I say it, non-Leica camera?  I have been eyeing mirrorless cameras from Nikon, Sony, Canon, etc.  But I fear that the ergonomics and experience will significantly fall short of my M10 shooting.  But the need for video and zoom is real, and my latest iPhone doesn't quite satisfy it.  Help!!

I complement my M camera with cameras from Nikon, Fujifilm and Panasonic, but most for photography (not so experienced in video).

Edited May 27, 2021 by martinot

[martinot]

On 5/25/2021 at 3:57 PM, robsonj said:

I've used Sony mirrorless since 2013. The menu argument is somewhat bogus imho, especially with the advent of the 'my menu', but it was a weak argument in 2013 imho. Once you set up the camera, you don't need to go into the menu save maybe once a year. The camera's physical button layout is highly configurable and assignable, the auto focus is fantastic. The few things I use in the menu on occasion, I add to the 'my menu' so they're right there.

I have the techart pro and the VM close focus adapter.

I think Sony has fantastic tech (sensor, autofocus), but personally I do not connect with them at all. I do not like their ergonomics (much prefer Fuji and Nikon), and I personally do not get along at all with their complicated and messy meny system (I find the Nikon and Canon menu system much more simple and logic to find things). For me Sony cameras are great tech, but not designed by photographers for photographers.

[martinot]

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On 5/26/2021 at 5:15 AM, cboy said:

For video its obvious to look elsewehere but probably stay within the L mount ecosystem. Sensor stack thickness could be an issue for wide M lenses on other non L mount systems. For most compact setup the sigma fp is ideal as its also L mount

Totally agree. M mount lenses perform absolutely the best on M cameras. The sensor stack is optimized for the rays wide angles.

For mirrorless cameras, regardless if SL, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, Canon, I recommend to mainly use native lenses optimized for the system.

[martinot]

15 hours ago, mmradman said:

M lenses play nicely on full frame Z cameras, I have experience with Z7. Apparently Nikon Z sensor cover glass is second thinnest after the Leica which help with many M lenses.  I have tried WATE, Lux 21, 28, 35, 50 and 75mm,  Super Elmar 21, APO 50 and 90, all good.

EVF focus is easy and total of 20 non-CPU lenses can be programmed in with focal length and F stop to optimise IBIS. Z6 has minimum ISO of 100 and Z7 of 64. With IBiS capability ISO 64 becomes default. Higher ISO is also good and pretty much grain like if noise reduction is disabled. Body is not much bigger than M body, different shape with the EVF bulge and built in hand grip, sits really well in hand.

 

Yes, the thickness of Sony sensor package (even if they have a great stacked solution for their native E-lenses) is a clear disadvantage for M lenses (especially wider ones).

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, martinot said:

Yes, the thickness of Sony sensor package (even if they have a great stacked solution for their native E-lenses) is a clear disadvantage for M lenses (especially wider ones).

Very often we hear of people needing to modify Sony camera to achieve acceptable compatibility with M lenses, e.g. Kolari mod.  That may be cheaper than Leica camera but it sounds complicated and have compromises.  It definitely reinforces the notion that EVF full frame camera and M lenses is desirable combination.

I went into Z system as I needed AF lens and Leica SL was not the one. Being able to use M lenses on mirrorless is additional bonus rather than something i reach for as first option.   Older SLR lenses like Leica R really play well on Z camera and probably others mirrorless with thicker cover glass.

[Stephen.s1]

Take a few minutes and check out the Olympus OMD EM1mkIII.

[astrostl]

Zoom for what subjects/conditions? Recs could differ between, say, safari and dance recitals.

[startover]

2 minutes ago, astrostl said:

Zoom for what subjects/conditions? Recs could differ between, say, safari and dance recitals.

Well, I was looking for thoughts on a camera complement.  The subject and setting would be a lens choice, I would think.

[Dan Bachmann]

My companion camera to an M10 is a Panasonic GH5 mainly for video needs, but also as a backup or where having a zoom is handy like on a hike with friends. I have an M lens adapter, plus there are native Leica lenses for it so I can still play here with what it produces

 

[astrostl]

17 minutes ago, startover said:

Well, I was looking for thoughts on a camera complement.  The subject and setting would be a lens choice, I would think.

Describing your intended subject/conditions does not sound difficult to me given, the need for video and zoom is real 😂 Subject and setting can radically inform body/sensor selection for things like autofocus and high ISO, e.g. the (high-speed) safari and (usually low light) dance recital examples already provided.

You can default to an expensive wundersystem like the Sony A1, but might be able to succeed with something smaller and cheaper depending on what you shoot.

Edited May 28, 2021 by astrostl

[startover]

7 minutes ago, astrostl said:

Describing your intended subject/conditions does not sound difficult to me given, the need for video and zoom is real 😂 Subject and setting can radically inform body/sensor selection because of autofocus needs and types, e.g. the (high-speed) safari and (usually low light) dance recital examples already provided.

I was not avoiding the question, but I *do not* have an intended subject in mind.  I am a documentary photographer with over twenty years of exclusively using Leica M bodies (film and digital) and lenses.  Plus my iPhone ... I have had every model from when it was introduced.   My phone does everything my camera cannot--zoom, video--but with low quality results.  That is what I am trying to fix.  Also, in my defense, I was not looking for a recommendation, simply trying to understand what others use besides their M10.  Thanks for your desire and willingness to help

[astrostl]

When I'm thinking ZOOM in a context-agnostic way I'm defaulting to Micro Four Thirds. They have a massive array of bodies and lenses, including zooms that range from tiny to huge. The crop factor on the sensor makes them fantastic for zoom: the relatively cheap Panasonic 100-300mm, for example, is a 200-600mm focal length equivalent. Both Olympus (e.g. the E-M1 II/III) and Panasonic (e.g. the G9) are stellar at video and IBIS too. Olympus wins on AF and tech, Panasonic wins on video and usability IMO. Weather sealing all over the place too, Olympus moreso than Panasonic but both are serious about it.

Folks are concerned about the health of the system because Olympus recently sold to private equity and Panasonic is engaging on full frame, but Olympus is still announcing new products and Panasonic just announced the GH5 II and GH6 a couple days ago. If you don't expect major AF or high ISO needs, I would consider starting with a G9 and the Panasonic 100-300 II. I was in the system before Leica M and I've kept it around for telephoto use-cases (e.g. charity event shooting and trips to the zoo).

[astrostl]

(Sony has great video and a rapidly-growing stable of incredible lenses, but once you're in full frame and even APS-C longer zooms can be real size/weight honkers)

Edited May 28, 2021 by astrostl

[rramesh]

For me a complementary camera to the M would be the Fuji XT4.

The Fuji, with a APS-C sensor give more options with M lenses. Take a 28mm with an M and on the XT4 you have a 40mm option.

Plus the XT4 has a rangefinder-like EFT and takes great video. And you can use all of the Fuji lenses.

Edited May 28, 2021 by rramesh

[startover]

3 minutes ago, astrostl said:

When I'm thinking ZOOM in a context-agnostic way I'm defaulting to Micro Four Thirds. They have a massive array of bodies and lenses, including zooms that range from tiny to huge. The crop factor on the sensor makes them fantastic for zoom: the relatively cheap Panasonic 100-300mm, for example, is a 200-600mm focal length equivalent. Both Olympus (e.g. the E-M1 II/III) and Panasonic (e.g. the G9) are stellar at video and IBIS too. Olympus wins on AF and tech, Panasonic wins on video and usability IMO. Weather sealing all over the place too, Olympus moreso than Panasonic but both are serious about it.

Folks are concerned about the health of the system because Olympus recently sold to private equity and Panasonic is engaging on full frame, but Olympus is still announcing new products and Panasonic just announced the GH5 II and GH6 a couple days ago. If you don't expect major AF or high ISO needs, I would consider starting with a G9 and the Panasonic 100-300 II. I was in the system before Leica M and I've kept it around for telephoto use-cases (e.g. charity event shooting and trips to the zoo).

That's helpful, thank you.  Good point about thinking through the health and ownership of the brand.  A few things I got addicted to with my Leica (and my iPhone!) are simplicity and size.  So a compact system which is easy to use will be a deciding factor.  I don't have AF needs ... in fact, if there is a good MF capability, that would be my preference.  What I would miss in the new setup is seeing the dials for exposure control on the camera or the lens.  I will look into the G9.  And also investigate the Sony and Nikon setups mentioned by others, that would allow using my existing M lenses. As of now, there seems to be no perfect answer. 

 

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[startover]

5 minutes ago, rramesh said:

For me a complementary camera to the M would be the Fuji XT4.

The Fuji, with a APS-C sensor give more options with M lenses. Take a 28mm with an M and on the XT4 you have a 40mm option.

Plus the XT4 has a rangefinder-like EFT and takes great video. And you can use all of the Fuji lenses.

Thank you.  I have been eyeing the Fujis.  Love the compatibility in the experience with the Leica, especially the dials for shutter speed and aperture.   A few follow-up questions: 1) what did you mean by "rangefinder-like EFT" 2) thoughts on IQ compromise with APS-C versus full frame? 3) how is the manual focusing experience when you use an M lens on the XT4? 4) what zoom lenses do you have now ... are you happy with them? 5) is the XT4 due for an updated model soon?