Battery compatibiliy

[Jeff S]

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4 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I keep seeing this written, but I am struggling with whether it is really true.  The S007 and S3 are reported as having about 15 stops of dynamic range the and M10-R 13.5 - 14 stops depending on who you talk with.  It just seems if they are from the same sensor wafer, the dynamic range would be the same. Maybe it is in the electronic tuning, I don’t know.  I just question it, that’s all.

Reported from reliable sources, and discussed at length in other threads. Only way to make it financially viable. Just as the S007 and M240 shared sensor architecture.  The rest I’ll leave to others to explain.

Jeff

 

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jeff S

[davidmknoble]

4 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Reported from reliable sources, and discussed at length in other threads. Only way to make it financially viable. Just as the S007 and M240 shared sensor architecture.  The rest I’ll leave to others to explain.

Jeff

 

I hear you and I've read the threads, but I haven't found anywhere that Leica says this and the sensors have different dynamic ranges.  So, something doesn't make sense...  I've attached a comparison of the dynamic ranges from Photons to Photos of the S3, M10R and SL2S, if they share the same sensor architecture, I would expect them to be more similar in curves, especially at the low (native end).  I'm sure there is someone here with a better scientific background that could explain that ...

Sorry for pirating the battery feed, I'll stop.

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[Jeff S]

35 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

I hear you and I've read the threads, but I haven't found anywhere that Leica says this and the sensors have different dynamic ranges.  So, something doesn't make sense...  I've attached a comparison of the dynamic ranges from Photons to Photos of the S3, M10R and SL2S, if they share the same sensor architecture, I would expect them to be more similar in curves, especially at the low (native end).  I'm sure there is someone here with a better scientific background that could explain that ...

Sorry for pirating the battery feed, I'll stop.

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The SL2-S sensor has nothing to do with the S3.  The S3 per pixel architecture is identical to that of the M10 Monochrom and M10-R (the latter with a color array over the same Monochrom sensor).  The S007 and M240 were the first to share in this way.

Jeff

[darylgo]

It's a good thing that cameras can't read these reports, they'd be as confused as I am.  I'll give it a try though.  Many camera manufacturers use Sony sensors and they each have their own signature look, so my guess (hunch) is that there's many more variables in the chain that effect the image, the sensor is only part of the equation.  Leica being a single manufacturer of two cameras with the same sensor, it would seem logical they would measure identically except they don't.   I know two big differences between the M and S system.  Leica has to put a very thin IR filter on the M sensor because of constraints built into the system from film days, also the M system requires micro lenses http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html for the sensor to resolve the steep ray angles produced by M lenses.  The S system, I would speculate has a thicker IR glass, and no micro lenses.  Beyond that it would appear Leica chooses to make each sensor render differently, perhaps the physics of a larger sensor plays a roll.    

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, darylgo said:

It's a good thing that cameras can't read these reports, they'd be as confused as I am.  I'll give it a try though.  Many camera manufacturers use Sony sensors and they each have their own signature look, so my guess (hunch) is that there's many more variables in the chain that effect the image, the sensor is only part of the equation.  Leica being a single manufacturer of two cameras with the same sensor, it would seem logical they would measure identically except they don't.   I know two big differences between the M and S system.  Leica has to put a very thin IR filter on the M sensor because of constraints built into the system from film days, also the M system requires micro lenses http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html for the sensor to resolve the steep ray angles produced by M lenses.  The S system, I would speculate has a thicker IR glass, and no micro lenses.  Beyond that it would appear Leica chooses to make each sensor render differently, perhaps the physics of a larger sensor plays a roll.    

Of course there are many additional variables beyond the sensor architecture.  As noted by Nicci in the earlier link, even Phase has a body sharing the S3 architecture.

But the S clearly has micro lenses.  See the pictures and text near the end of the attached summary of the S007 sensor…

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/
 

Jeff

[BernardC]

On 7/16/2021 at 5:21 PM, davidmknoble said:

if they share the same sensor architecture, I would expect them to be more similar in curves

P-to-P aggregates user-submitted shots of computer monitors. Every submission uses a different monitor, lens, room lights, etc. You should expect a lot of variability, especially with a low-volume camera like the S3. Some of the variations should average-out, if they get hundreds of submissions, but P-to-P numbers can't be compared to any other dynamic range numbers.

Testing dynamic range is very difficult, and there's no standardized methodology. Using professional video scopes is arguably the most consistent method, but even then no two cinematographers will agree on where the highlights and shadows should go.

[setuporg]

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On 7/16/2021 at 4:29 AM, davidmknoble said:

I keep seeing this written, but I am struggling with whether it is really true.  The S007 and S3 are reported as having about 15 stops of dynamic range the and M10-R 13.5 - 14 stops depending on who you talk with.  It just seems if they are from the same sensor wafer, the dynamic range would be the same. Maybe it is in the electronic tuning, I don’t know.  I just question it, that’s all.

I have the exact same question, and the followup does not clarify it much...  Does DR increase with a sensor size, magically?  Is there any physics to explain that?

P.S.

As usual,  the DR research happens under "Battery compatibility" topic.:)

Edited July 20, 2021 by setuporg

[Jeff S]

46 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I have the exact same question, and the followup does not clarify it much...  Does DR increase with a sensor size, magically?  Is there any physics to explain that?

P.S.

As usual,  the DR research happens under "Battery compatibility" topic.:)

Old article linked, but concepts still hold.  Dynamic range relates to more than pixel or sensor size, particularly with many gains in technology; newer is generally better.  The dual gain architecture of the S3, M10-R and M10-M is but one example.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/02/sensor-size-matters-part-2/
 

Jeff

[analog-digital]

What does all this have to do with battery compatibility?

Use another thread please.

[darylgo]

On 5/15/2021 at 12:29 AM, analog-digital said:

How much do you pay for the exchange?

My S006 was estimated at $4000 for replacement of the sensor and electronics.  In the interim I purchased a S007 for $4400 and refused the estimate repair.  Leica returned the camera unrepaired.  I called Leica to ask about an exchange and will be trading it for a Q2 plus a $4195 charge.  MPB initially sent me a quote of $1700 to purchase the camera, when I advised them of the sensor corrosion they would not purchase it.   The S006 could also be exchanged for a M10-P or M10-R.  

[Jeff S]

17 hours ago, analog-digital said:

What does all this have to do with battery compatibility?

Use another thread please.

Your posts #11 and #13 redirected the discussion, common to the vast majority of threads on the forum, particularly when the answer to the initial question is relatively simple and addressed early on.  One can always report offending posts to the mods if it’s all that important.

Jeff

 

[analog-digital]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Jeff S:

Your posts #11 and #13 redirected the discussion, common to the vast majority of threads on the forum, particularly when the answer to the initial question is relatively simple and addressed early on.  One can always report offending posts to the mods if it’s all that important.

Jeff

 

And now we are going back, OK?

[Jeff S]

27 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

And now we are going back, OK?

I just go with the flow.  Knock yourself out if you want to police the forum; the mods are here to accommodate if needed.

BTW, what more could you possibly want to know about your initial questions from post #1, which were answered rather quickly?

Jeff

[analog-digital]

@ Jeff S

 

Keep a low profile and stay decent, OK? Thank you.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, encreed04 said:

......Service on the S framework needs as a rule ...an excursion to Wetzler. It is entirely normal for these fixes to require a half year or more. Except if you or your vendor can send the camera straightforwardly to Germany ..you will lose 2 months or more on the way through NJ. 

Is that still the case? I know it was five years ago, but several people have posted much better experiences on this forum since then. I had a lens motor replaced a few years back and the total time was under two months, which isn't great but it's not six months either.

I just sent-in a S for service, and it seems like it was sent to Germany right away (or at least it's in the "to be sent" drawer).

I'm in Canada, and we have to use Leica New Jersey for service. The situation is different outside of Canada and the US. Most Leica distributors worldwide will DHL any S to Wetzlar right away (as NJ seems to be doing now).

[mgrayson3]

I sent my S3 to NJ in early September. It went to Wetzlar, I’m not sure when exactly. Work on the camera has started and I was told to expect it in 2-3 weeks. Not 2 months, but not 6. Assuming all goes as stated. 

[HuntingSand]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb mgrayson3:

I sent my S3 to NJ in early September. It went to Wetzlar, I’m not sure when exactly. Work on the camera has started and I was told to expect it in 2-3 weeks. Not 2 months, but not 6. Assuming all goes as stated. 

May I ask why your S3 required a trip back to Wetzlar? Just curious...my S006 went back for a sensor replacement a couple years back, no issues since.

[mgrayson3]

2 hours ago, HuntingSand said:

May I ask why your S3 required a trip back to Wetzlar? Just curious...my S006 went back for a sensor replacement a couple years back, no issues since.

Tethering failed one day. I almost never tether, but I thought it should be fixed on general principles.