M4 , 2 versions ??

[odoardo]

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Hi,

Recently I decided to return to ‘my roots’ and bought - again, after sold my Leica M’s and R’s more then 10 years ago- an M4

Needs some work, but that’s okay. I’m not a collector but photographer.

Accidentally I happened to run into an old student of mine who I once sold my old M4. He had the camera with him and I was shocked by the condition of the camera. So, I liked to get it back. From none now 2 M4’s….

Side by side, I notice some differences.

They both produced in 1969. But one has no black plastic tips on some levers.

In the pictures I find of an M4 they all have those plastic tips. On the transportlever, on the selftimer and on the field of view selector.

What is the story, anybody know?

Where there 2 version’s ?? Did once put somebody  M2 or M3 levers on the M4 ?? Seems unlikely. I know the history of this camera. It was used in a Government department from new till end ’80s when I bought it. If the camera was serviced it was done by Leica.

I wonder.  Does anyone have an idea ??

Thanks ,

Herman, Netherlands

 

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[a.noctilux]

Hello,

Looking at the levers, those "round" selectors selftimer and field select are not quite right.

Compare it with the "R" square lever.

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If it's from factory, I think it's not a second version of M4, maybe kind of special requirement from customer,

or maybe the M4's parts were not available to honor a rush.

 

I know over time so many people who swapped those levers between M2/M3/M4/M6/etc..

They are mostly interchangeable.

Edited May 2, 2021 by a.noctilux

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[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Odoardo,

Welcome to the Forum.

These are easily interchangeable parts. Whether the camera was ordered this way or if it it was done after the camera was bought, this is not a difficult thing to do.

Best Regards,

Michael

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

If the desire was to replace the plastic covered metal frames of the M4 with all metal levers there was no need to replace the M4 film release lever with the M2 film release lever because the M4 film release lever is already all metal. The original M3 film release lever is longer. When production of the M2 began the M2 film release lever was used for the M3, M2, eventually the M1 & the MD. etc.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited May 2, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[odoardo]

1 hour ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Odoardo,

Welcome to the Forum.

These are easily interchangeable parts. Whether the camera was ordered this way or if it it was done after the camera was bought, this is not a difficult thing to do.

Best Regards,

Michael

Thanks Michael, I've been a member fo some time, but never posted anything.  ( Arnaud also thanks for your input)

Why would you custom the M4 by changing these levers? I know who and how this camera was used, I see no need to do this.  

I think they bought the camera like this and as both camera's came from one batch in 1969,   I suspect the dealer in holland changing it. Anyway; we will never know. The ones that can tell  are no longer among us.

Herman

 

[a.noctilux]

Herman,

Weird/strange things can happen without explanations from Leitz or Leica.

Mysteries from details differences are (for me 😉) trademarks of handmade goods.

That pleases me ...

Even recently (well some years ago) on M-A choice of rewind lever for black M-A NOT in phase with the field select lever.

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Black M-A with M4 style rewind lever "R" AND M3/MP style wind-on and field select levers

on Silver M-A, the three levers are "right"

If we look at details 🙃

 

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by a.noctilux

[lct]

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On 5/2/2021 at 2:30 PM, odoardo said:

Why would you custom the M4 by changing these levers? I know who and how this camera was used, I see no need to do this. 

Not sure but when i got mine in the seventies i did not like those vulgar plastic tips at all.  I seem to remember Leica could mount M2 or M3 parts instead. I would ask on the Collectors & Historica Forum but they would confirm what Michael said above i suspect.

[odoardo]

Thanks, Ict. I gave it a shot in the Collectors & Historica Forum. Who knows.....

[adan]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:03 AM, a.noctilux said:

Weird/strange things can happen without explanations from Leitz or Leica.

....and Leica owners.

It has indeed been a "retro nostalgia fad" among certain Leica owners, on and off over the decades, to replace the hybrid plastic-metal levers and tabs of the M4 and later models, with solid-metal M2 or M3 parts.

Leica even catered to that for a while, with their "A La Carte" ordering program, wherein one could order a custom-built M7 with the all-metal MP levers - or vice versa. Along with other options like colored leatherettes and different engravings. https://www.cameraquest.com/leicaMalacarte.htm

As someone who has seen those plastic lever parts fail under use, long before metal does, and generally prefers solid metal for any part that encounters stresses (pushing/pulling) in use, I am somewhat sympathetic to the idea. I have seen M4s with the plastic tip of the wind-lever broken off, and only the metal "stub" available for winding the film. And personally had the plastic inserts in the frame-selection lever crack and fall out of the metal frame.

But I buy my cameras to take pictures with, not hang around in the shop, so I never waste time with the conversions.

 

[odoardo]

11 hours ago, adan said:

But I buy my cameras to take pictures with, not hang around in the shop, so I never waste time with the conversions.

+1

but just curious