Best 180mm R lens for hand held shooting

[Shu_downunder]

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I wonder what in your experience is the best for 180mm when using hand held?

4/80-200 which I have is really good. However the zoom is not always what I want and the additional weight and length become a drawback.

2/180 is apparently not the best for hand held.

So for F2.8, F3.4, and F4:

Would F3.4 APO is best option which balance in terms of image quality and light weight? The only drawback I could think of is closest focusing distance of 1.7m, although not that bad comparing to the 1.5m of the Elmarit.

[Sandokan]

Can you define best handheld? 

What is the max weight and distribution of weight for you? What is the camera at the end of the lens? CL, SL? Do you use a monopod? What is the ratio of image quality to portability you are willing to live with? Will you consider adapted lenses? Is 150mm close enough? 

I had the 180/4 and images were fantastic, but I sold it for the 80-200 and flexibility and never looked back. 

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[Shu_downunder]

5 minutes ago, Sandokan said:

Can you define best handheld? 

What is the max weight and distribution of weight for you? What is the camera at the end of the lens? CL, SL? Do you use a monopod? What is the ratio of image quality to portability you are willing to live with? Will you consider adapted lenses? Is 150mm close enough? 

I had the 180/4 and images were fantastic, but I sold it for the 80-200 and flexibility and never looked back. 

Thanks @Sandokan

Handheld for a 3-4 hours trip, I reckon the lighter the better. 1.6kg would be the extreme max. This is roughly the weight of a sony a7(which is quite light) + a 4/80-200 and battery.

Considering I will have a M at the same time, I actually prefer lighter options.

Intended Body would be a SL2 which is not light, or a sony a7c. Monopod is probably a good idea but I don't have habit to use them. Sometimes I bring a tripod (for the purpose of family selfie) and use it as a mono. Quite often I have to shot and go as I travel with young kids.

Because of that reason, portability overweights image quality.

I have an extender 2x APO so other options welcome.

[adan]

The f/4 180 Elmar-R is definitely easiest on the muscles. I found it a bit low-contrast to focus on a plain-textured "bright" focusing screen (e.g. Canon digital SLR with adapter). Better with the split-image focus-aid and coarser screen on a "real" R.

Never tried it on an EVF.

The f/3.4 APO (or any APO) is the clear winner in image quality.

I would say the 80-200, 180 f/2.8 v.2 (compact) and APO-Telyt are about equal for hand-holding or carry-weight - although the zoom is rather long physically, which can mean it waves around more in the breeze than the more compact primes. Not quite as easy to hand-hold steadily.

The APO-Telyt is the one I kept the longest, by several years. Simply a whole different animal in clarity and resolution at all apertures (although I rarely stopped down anyway). Originally produced by ELCAN as a surveillance lens for the U.S. Navy, so that the intel-types could photograph Soviet or Chinese jets shadowing the fleet from several klicks away - and then read the unit markings on the aircraft in blow-ups.

I found the 1.7m close-focus-limit to be just enough, most of the time. And frankly, as a lens optimized for long-range surveillance duty, it is already getting ever-so-slightly soft even at 1.7m. I used (and still use) an M-mount 75mm if I want really tight framing of close-up details.

[Charles Morgan]

I have the 180mm F4 Elmar which I use on an R8, mostly. A really sharp, medium weight (about 1lb) and compact lens. A friend has the ApoTelyt, which is beautiful, but he uses it with a tripod all the time, and he hasn't used it in 6 months.

My priority now is lightness. A heavy lens needing a tripod will never get used. However, I find 180mm one of those focal lengths that is too short to be a useful long lens, and too long to be a good walkround option.

 

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[a.noctilux]

One of my "best" (ergonomic in use and results), but not the "best" I fear for M use.

As seen here in Wiki ( Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 ), the closest focus is 2.5m and filter thread, rare E60 or Serie 7.5.

The lens was designed to be used near infinity from start ( survey job of US Marine if I remember ), in 1970's.

As long time user, I appreciate it's balance, relative light weight (same weight as 2.8/135 R for example),

when I use it with the x2 Apo-Extender-R, equiv. 6.8/360mm at wide open the results are very good, curvature of field enhances center part,

no need to close down if dof is not mandatory.

[Shu_downunder]

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3 hours ago, Charles Morgan said:

However, I find 180mm one of those focal lengths that is too short to be a useful long lens, and too long to be a good walkround option

Agree!

The main use of 180 to me, is to capture some family activities, sometimes their face details, from where they barely notice my existence. 
I miss it if it’s not in my bag, but I don’t use it all the time. 

[Shu_downunder]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

One of my "best" (ergonomic in use and results), but not the "best" I fear for M use.

As seen here in Wiki ( Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180 ), the closest focus is 2.5m and filter thread, rare E60 or Serie 7.5.

The lens was designed to be used near infinity from start ( survey job of US Marine if I remember ), in 1970's.

As long time user, I appreciate it's balance, relative light weight (same weight as 2.8/135 R for example),

when I use it with the x2 Apo-Extender-R, equiv. 6.8/360mm at wide open the results are very good, curvature of field enhances center part,

no need to close down if dof is not mandatory.

Do you use it hand held or with pod(s).

[Shu_downunder]

Weight comparison 

F4/180 540g

F3.4/180 750g

F4/80-200 907g

F2.8/180 980g

 

And because it’s for moving subject(kids), the right moment might overweight image quality. Thus the lightest one wins. I guess. 

[a.noctilux]

Long long time ago, my first 180mm was Elmar-R 4/180, very light indeed but the results on film was soso, maybe because the f/4 was not easy to focus with 180mm and slow film.

Another very good "R" lens that I also have Angenieux Zoom 3x70mm f/3.5 ( have a look here for samples ).

So when it was possible I replaced the light 4/180 with the APO 3.4/180 (very expensive lens by then as first Leitz Apo 180mm, same price new as M- Noctilux 1.0/50).

Now we can find pretty "cheap" Apo 3.4/180mm comparing to other lenses of same "Apo" designation.

[Stef63]

Like @a.noctilux said the APO-Telyt-R f/3.4 180 has indeed a closest focus distance of 2.5 m and not 1.7 m .  It is a very good lens for it's intended use, namely for infinity or close to infinity shots.  Although a heavier combination a prefer it on the SL2 than on my M10 because of the better balance.

 

[jankap]

Two times 90mm equals 180mm and 135mm times 1.4 equal 180mm too. So with an extender the total weight could be lower.

I have an APS  camera, with this and IBIS the Telyt 180mm can be handheld at 1/60sec and 1/30sec.

[a.noctilux]

Shu,

to have an idea of my M use with Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180,

management from my Leica R days with custom made "holding device", I have in two sizes, large and narrow depending on lens in use.

usable handheld,

first with 14256 macro-adapter-R special 30mm ring for Macro-Elmarit-R, this can focus in range of 1.2m to 1.7m

(serial n° hiden ! )

 

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without the 30mm ring

 

inspiration from other Leitz grip for holding/focussing with two digits

I used to have the very nice Apo-Telyt-R 2.8/280 with it's grip 14632 (pistol stock support ?)

 

the real very nice one 14632

Edited April 25, 2021 by a.noctilux

[msh58]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb a.noctilux:

 

inspiration from other Leitz grip for holding/focussing with two digits

I used to have the very nice Apo-Telyt-R 2.8/280 with it's grip 14632 (pistol stock support ?)

 

the real very nice one 14632

Hi,

There is also a (rare) similar pistol stock (14 282), available separately, which can be added to the Apo-Telyt-R 4/280, for example, see picture. I have found it very nice for supporting the lens and focusing with fingers. Unfortunately, the guide pin hole in the R Adapter M is located sideways with respect to the tripod screw rather than along the lens axis so that while the grip fits, it will be in the wrong orientation, see pictures. This accessory has a confusing number because it is the same as an earlier Motor Winder R4! - Matti

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[Shu_downunder]

18 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Shu,

to have an idea of my M use with Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180,

management from my Leica R days with custom made "holding device", I have in two sizes, large and narrow depending on lens in use.

usable handheld,

first with 14256 macro-adapter-R special 30mm ring for Macro-Elmarit-R, this can focus in range of 1.2m to 1.7m

(serial n° hiden ! )

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

without the 30mm ring

 

inspiration from other Leitz grip for holding/focussing with two digits

I used to have the very nice Apo-Telyt-R 2.8/280 with it's grip 14632 (pistol stock support ?)

 

the real very nice one 14632

Thanks Arnaud(is this correct spelling? )

That’s very interesting. Will you hold it in your left hand? The how do you focus?

 

PS. your lens number looks sleepy🤪

 

Edited April 26, 2021 by Shu_downunder

[Shu_downunder]

16 hours ago, msh58 said:

Hi,

There is also a (rare) similar pistol stock (14 282), available separately, which can be added to the Apo-Telyt-R 4/280, for example, see picture. I have found it very nice for supporting the lens and focusing with fingers. Unfortunately, the guide pin hole in the R Adapter M is located sideways with respect to the tripod screw rather than along the lens axis so that while the grip fits, it will be in the wrong orientation, see pictures. This accessory has a confusing number because it is the same as an earlier Motor Winder R4! - Matti

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Thanks!

[Shu_downunder]

On 4/25/2021 at 8:19 PM, jankap said:

Two times 90mm equals 180mm and 135mm times 1.4 equal 180mm too. So with an extender the total weight could be lower.

I have an APS  camera, with this and IBIS the Telyt 180mm can be handheld at 1/60sec and 1/30sec.

I though seriously on these suggestions. However when adding the numbers it seems less attractive.
2/90 AA = 500g + extender 2x apo = 270g = 770g. That's already slightly over the F3.4/180 750g.
My real problem is that I don't have 2/90 AA. 😅
I have a 1.4/80, which is 690g, plus 270g = 950g. nearly as heavy as 2.8/180mm.
The benifit, though, is that I do have an equiv. of 2.8/160mm. which could be cool. And, I don't need to purchase anything. 
I might just give it a try this weekend. 

[a.noctilux]

Yes lens number was "hiden" as I wrote,

a while back, someone stole my "gear pics" for an false/rip-off selling ...

Using the setup is holding/supporting with left hand, and focus turning with two fingers.

The grip must be the right size (not too large like the 14632).

[msh58]

vor 50 Minuten schrieb a.noctilux:

Yes lens number was "hiden" as I wrote,

a while back, someone stole my "gear pics" for an false/rip-off selling ...

Using the setup is holding/supporting with left hand, and focus turning with two fingers.

The grip must be the right size (not too large like the 14632).

The 14282 is of perfect size for me, not as big as the 14632, which comes with the Apo-Telyt 280/2.8

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[a.noctilux]

I'm happy to have custom made my grips at right size for my use ( for decades now, on Leica R then and now on M , time pasts so quick ).

For Shu, as I never used the Apo-Extender x2 with the Summilux-R 80mm.

Out of curiosity, tried  to hand hold and focus the setup

it is very usable ...

 

showing how I would focus with two fingers and still firmly holding the set

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