Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Olaf_ZG]

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26 minutes ago, jarek0423 said:

100% correct! Why don't you start by taking your own advice?

Based on the amount of comments, I’d say I do.

[T25UFO]

I've been reading this thread, which has been interesting and entertaining . . . until the trolls start attacking each other.  

Why does this happen?  Is it just a very unfortunate sign of the times in which we live?

Antisocial media!

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[Olaf_ZG]

Why trolls? Somebody stated he’d rather uses his m10 and is being told not too waste his time. Somebody comments on that respective comment in the same way.

no trolling. 

One being happy with his m10 should be able to say so in a m11 thread. 

[MikeMyers]

Maybe something like this instead of the removable bottom plate.....

Quick access to SD card and battery.

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[nicci78]

On 9/18/2021 at 6:45 PM, elmars said:

The M10 came in January. Why not in November, if Christmas is so important?

Leica never intended to release M10 in January 2017. Unfortunately for Leica and for us I t was not ready for holidays season in 2016. 
And it was very very hard to get throughout 2017. 
 

Leica usually likes to released its cameras in March/April or May/June and October/November. 
 

 

[cboy]

7 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Maybe something like this instead of the removable bottom plate.....

Quick access to SD card and battery.

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I hope its only one door containing both sd and battery rather than two in the Qs case from a design aesthetic pov...i think the bottom cover /plate will be minimal as possible with the new m.

I wonder if it can be ips certified. One step to becoming as durable as the tank like film bodies.

[Dennis]

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3 hours ago, Artin said:

I actually liked a video capability, would love IBiS, I welcome a great EVF, low native ISO 64 would be perfect, USB Battery charging , and do give me a wopping 50 mpx sensor.

You just described a mirrorless. What about the RF essence? 🤷‍♂️

 

[Ecar]

3 hours ago, Artin said:

Now this I agree with a true successor to the M240, I actually liked a video capability, would love IBiS, I welcome a great EVF, low native ISO 64 would be perfect, USB Battery charging , and do give me a wopping 50 mpx sensor. And I must say I preferred the larger body of the Mp240 way more then my M10R 

SL2?

[MarkP]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:31 AM, MikeMyers said:

The site also expects the announcement to take place on 11/11/21, noting that the Leica M9 was announced on 09/09/09.

Well they'll be stuffed when they get to the M13...

Edited September 24, 2021 by MarkP

[FrozenInTime]

4 minutes ago, MarkP said:

Well they'll be stuffed when they get to the M13...

Think Duodecimal 😉

 

[Bikie John]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

Think Duodecimal 😉

 

B/B/B?

John 

[Simone_DF]

The new Leica battery. Goodbye baseplate, I won't miss you.

 

 

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[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

In all honestly I just like small manual focus lenses ... I could care less about a rangefinder. In the past 40 years I have had a love hate relationship with the Rangefinder ... If they could do a hybrid ? Great  if no well so be it

Seems you would embrace the SL2 or SL2S with M lenses. Somewhat bigger body, which you prefer (but not too big), with great VF, IBIS, etc.

Jeff

[cboy]

12 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

The new Leica battery. Goodbye baseplate, I won't miss you.

 

 

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 Im thinking perhaps the m10d will become a collectors item as the last era of m to still try to look entirely like a film m

[roma]

6 minutes ago, cboy said:

 Im thinking perhaps the m10d will become a collectors item as the last era of m to still try to look entirely like a film m

And the original M10 with louder shutter. My portrait subjects were always confused if I took a shot or not  when I used an M10-P.

[adan]

BTW - I have been thinking about what kind of EVF would work for me. My standard would be something which which I could take a picture like this:

https://murielwines.com/en/cuando-cartier-bresson-capto-la-esencia-del-vino/

See it - focus it - shoot it....in 3 seconds or less.

I can do it with the M RF. I did it for 30 years with SLR screens - and their own split-image focus prism/aid.

So here's what I can accept.

Resolution - capable of being focused "right now" with no magnification needed except the standard eyepiece, to get the image to 0.8-1.00 "life-size" with a 50mm lens. A little research shows that a good ground-glass resolves about 50 line pairs mm, or 100 lines per mm. So across a 35mm picture I need 3600 lines (3.6K video), and for a full 4:3 viewing screen (including the data bars top and bottom) I need 2700 lines tall. In dots or megapixels that comes out to a screen with 9.72 million dots/megapixels - or almost twice the dots of the current SL2 screens (41% more linear resolution).

 Lag time - SLR screens use the actual light coming from the subject, at about 300 million m/s. Or 0.00000001 of a second for something 3 meters/10 feet away. That is how little time the electronics will have to capture, process, and send the image(s) from the sensor to the EVF screen. I'm just not interested in seeing the past - show me right-now. I can probably accept 0.001 second - the finder lagging reality by 1/1000th sec. Probably requires stacked sensor/processor to move image data that fast.

Shutter lag - Leica film M standard - 20 milliseconds from push of shutter button to start of exposure. Open-for-viewing>close>open-for-exposure shutters won't cut it - needs electronic shutter.

Focus aid - real-time, full-time, split-image simulation (but does NOT have to be magnified - just picture in picture - if the overall screen rez is high enough). Fuji has a fuzzy, low-rent version, Leica (or someone) could do better. Just takes sophisticated graphics power (and phase-detect sensor pixels). And while we're at it, a nice circular aid - all it takes is graphics processing.

Now, that is probably a very heavy lift with current technology. 10 billion pixels per second flow to the screen, plus graphics processing.

I do have faith that Moore's Law will deliver - eventually. But anything less than that is just too low-rent for me.

Edited September 25, 2021 by adan

[LocalHero1953]

That Cartier-Bresson photo of the boy with the bottle of wine would be no problem at all for a CL or SL - even with an M the 'capture' is a fraction of a second after the 'thought of capture'. I very much doubt that he saw the boy with exactly that expression on his face (it looks fleeting) and decided in an instant to snap it - and caught it. Much more likely that he saw the boy coming round the corner, perhaps with an engaging look about him, focused and snapped, and struck lucky with the actual expression (is there a contact sheet showing how many shots he took?). 

I'm not arguing about the rest of your analysis. I am more than happy with current EVF screen resolution, brightness etc, which is what a lot of marketing showcases. Responsiveness/lag for me is the critical issue with EVFs. The TL2 was just a bit too laggy (phones are much worse). The CL is good enough for most of its uses, but I'm not really trying to stress test it. The SL series, in good lighting, as for C-B's small boy, is very responsive indeed - close enough to an optical finder for me to accept remaining deficiencies, because the EVF overcomes the RF/OVF's other deficiencies. In low light lag increases: I've been noticing this while shooting drama rehearsals in poor light. Even here, although the EVF noticeably lags, you can at least easily see and focus in scenes where I can barely see what's going on with the naked eye - RF focusing with the M would be a problem.

We don't have a perfect solution; it's just which limitations you can live with or work around. 

 

Edit. The solution to dealing with fleeting events and lag in both cases is anticipation - and this is where C-B scored time after time. In dance photography you have to be able to count, knowing that a dancer will hold a pose at, say, the end of a bar; in drama photography it helps to know the story, if you want to capture the first moment of shock. The same in sports, wildlife photography etc - knowledge and experience of how the scene will play out are vital.

Edited September 25, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[pgk]

3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Much more likely that he saw the boy coming round the corner, perhaps with an engaging look about him, focused and snapped,....

Edit. The solution to dealing with fleeting events and lag in both cases is anticipation

There are already 'predictive' video cameras which constantly run and are stopped after an event. By doing this and reviewing the footage which is constantly stored and updated over a given cycle, it is possble to select the useable section (its used for wildlife - breaching dolphins on Blue Planet was shot this way I think).

So a stills camera taking many frames per second would have a similar effect especially with tracking autofous aligned on the face. Switch on, follow subject, switch off and review. Of course the photographer would still be responsible for viewpoint (I don't think that this is easily automated) and potentially framing (although using sufficient MPiexels would allow even framing by cropping).

This would take all the fun out of photography though. I think I'll stick to manual everything because that way I know that the decision making, is entirely mine (as H C-B's was) for better or for worse.

Edited September 25, 2021 by pgk
typo again

[lct]

4 hours ago, adan said:

See it - focus it - shoot it....in 3 seconds or less.

So you don't recompose do you? 

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[lct]

4 hours ago, adan said:

That is how little time the electronics will have to capture, process, and send the image(s) from the sensor to the EVF screen. I'm just not interested in seeing the past - show me right-now.

If your eye sees the present, your camera will see the future after the little electronic times. I prefer seing the same as the camera but it is an old debate.