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Leica M11 - your next camera?


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10 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

Even with black tape over the logo, and a very old looking lens, I'm always aware that if I met up with the wrong people, I might have the camera stolen, and I would be unable to replace it.  It cost me around $7k, and then there's the lens.  If I travel, or go walking around in crowds, I think I would take my Fuji.  There's also a concern about image size - suppose each image is 60 megs, or 600 megs.  I will be looking for a faster computer, and more disk space.

Finally, if I'm pretending to emulate Ansel Adams, and put my camera on a tripod to capture the best image, I'm not sure that the Leica is the best camera to use, and if I'm following all the advice here about zone focusing, what good are all those additional megapixels, if most of my image is out of focus?

People write that thanks to depth of field, more of my image will be in focus, which is wrong.  The truth is more of my image will be in acceptable focus, but all those markings are based on a film camera making an 8x10 print held at arm's length as I recall.  If I want a mural sized print, I need to be aware of this.

Bottom line, my M10 is as "perfect" for me as my M3 used to be.  People still write that the M3 is the "best" film Leica ever.

Cameras are for using.  Beat it up, cover it up, hide it under your jumper, if any of that floats your boat.  But if your camera is too precious to use, perhaps it’s not the camera for you.  I’ve always been careful with my cameras, but I’ve always used them.

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Another unofficial factoid:  The price will be €111,121. 😳

These discussions invariably mix heritage and legacy issues with the latest and greatest, which doesn’t help. The M camera isn’t a test bed for the newest developments, or the mostest of everything - Sony does that better than anyone.  Nikon has its own aesthetic, and Canon something different again.  Each is battling in a difficult market where the cellphone camera reigns supreme in the number of cameras used and images taken. The M camera needs to compete for sales in the same market

I think Leica needs to play the Sensor Card, Leica M is the only fullframe camera on the Market that doesn't need to record Video. Which means the Sensor requirements are different. They should focus more on dynamic range and color reproduction. Just like Phase One and Hasselblad with its Medium Format is doing. Canon, Nikon, Fuji are all crippling themeself with the requirement of being able to film 120fps 4k footage with these sensors. All these cameras skin colors reproductions are s

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40 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Cameras are for using.  Beat it up, cover it up, hide it under your jumper, if any of that floats your boat.  But if your camera is too precious to use, perhaps it’s not the camera for you.  I’ve always been careful with my cameras, but I’ve always used them.

I agree. Cameras are for using and then upgrading, if you choose. Lenses are for keeping. A good lens is for a lifetime and then for passing on to the next generation. If anyone is scared about theft then insurance is the answer. Most people that see my M10-P think it is a film camera. Thieves aren't interested in film cameras. They go for Canon and Nikon lumps with big f**k off automatic focus lenses. Just offer to take the photo of potential thieves and say you will send them a copy when it has been developed. They will then give you their email addresses.

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Regarding the "theft" , i agree with peter in that my m262 for example is so small and low key nobody seems to notice it,especially compared to most modern cameras that are massive!!

Funny thing is that lots on here want all the features that make the other cameras massive? Strange world.

 

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59 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

If I travel, or go walking around in crowds, I think I would take my Fuji.

Just don't take an x-pro - that's the only camera I have ever used where people have said "Oooh is that a Leica""!

I use silver M60s/M240P/M9M everywhere and no-one really notices or cares. A big CaNikon is a much more attractive (resellable) "snatch" IMHO, or of course your iPhone while you're trying to get Leica FOTOS to work...

All my kit is insured worldwide on my house policy so I don't really think about it. I really think more people will "lose" their cameras by dropping them/dunking them in the sea/rain or leaving them behind somewhere than getting robbed - but maybe I'm too trusting?

 

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45 minutes ago, NigelG said:

Just don't take an x-pro - that's the only camera I have ever used where people have said "Oooh is that a Leica""!

I use silver M60s/M240P/M9M everywhere and no-one really notices or cares. A big CaNikon is a much more attractive (resellable) "snatch" IMHO, or of course your iPhone while you're trying to get Leica FOTOS to work...

All my kit is insured worldwide on my house policy so I don't really think about it. I really think more people will "lose" their cameras by dropping them/dunking them in the sea/rain or leaving them behind somewhere than getting robbed - but maybe I'm too trusting?

 

Not sure who you were quoting, but it wasn’t me.  I’ve never had a Fuji of any flavour …

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Sorry I quoted from within your quote of another poster (MikeMyers)..... I need to get a grip on how forum quoting works!

I’m also sure that most ne’er-do-wells would be rather wary of a “Michael Myers”.

..

Edited by NigelG
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13 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

If anyone is scared about theft then insurance is the answer.

(Not picking on Peter specifically, but this seems to be a common observation).

People automatically assume that theft is the biggest problem, but in a decade of photographing in Barcelona's more dodgy areas I have never had a problem.

What bothers me more is damage to the camera. Last weekend we hiked up a very rough and steep mountain trail and I carried the M10 with EVF fitted. There was a ton of dust and if you slip with the camera on you there is a good chance that it will be wrecked (me, I mostly self-repair). There are some amazing street photographs possible in heavy rain, and again that carries risk given the lack of sealing around the M's lens mount. I have also photographed in the middle of riots, where there were police baton charges and people throwing paint bombs, and inevitably the risk needed to get a shot is coloured by concern that the camera might be damaged. FWIW, I have wrecked an M typ 262 while documenting a protest - I fell and the camera hit a concrete post.

Insurance is an issue. Even if you can find it, it can be prohibitively expensive here (Spain - the last comprehensive quote I could find was about 1/3 of the cost of the equipment) and making a claim can be incredibly protracted. Even once the insurance is happy, the lack of stock and QC issues will again mean more delay, so if you really do not want to be without the M you probably need to maintain at least two complete systems, which compounds the cost.

There is not much wrong with the current M10, and not many significant changes that can be made without radically altering what it fundamentally is. I hope that M11 is not just a few minor features coupled to another large price rise. I would far rather that there was a basic functional camera with best-in-class sensor and sensible price point, and that Leica relied on exotic marketing versions for the luxury market.

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I don't understand what stops Leica from having a Sensor like the Arri Alexa LF.
The price of the camera is 98,200$ But its also a fullframe sensor. Manufactured by ON Semiconductor. 
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170213005236/en/ON-Semiconductor-Image-Sensor-Powers-Academy-Award-Winning-ALEXA-Camera-from-ARRI

The M10 Sensor was manufactured by STMicroelectronics and CMOSIS.

The Arri Alexa sensor is just amazing, the color rendition, the dynamic range, the skin tones. Arri Alex proofs that Sensor size is not the main Issue.
Sales numbers would go up massively as it would not be percieved anymore like a rich mans toy.
My point is that there is still a lot of room of improvement for Sensor technology. Much more then we think. 
I understand that superior Sensors come with more limitations e.g. ISO range, but frankly I would rather live with max ISO auf 6400 and amazing colors then follow the consumer tech non-sense of reaching 100.000 ISO numbers. Sony can have that win race. 

 

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1 minute ago, adan said:

Umm - $96,000?

The high price comes from a very small production number in Camera and Sensors. Leica would produce 100x more Cameras with an M11.
If Arri orders only 200 Sensors from the Manufacturer then each unit will be extremely expensive. Just like a Sony A7III is cheap because the can Scale production so much.
Another example is Blackmagic pocket camera 4k and 6k. They also have amazing Sensors but a low price as they went for mass market and were sold out for the first 2years of production.

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1 hour ago, TD11 said:

100x more Cameras with an M11.

They make complete cine cameras. I can't see why they would want to supply sensors even if they had capacity.

Edited by pedaes
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6 hours ago, TD11 said:

I don't understand what stops Leica from having a Sensor like the Arri Alexa LF.
The price of the camera is 98,200$ But its also a fullframe sensor. Manufactured by ON Semiconductor. 
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20170213005236/en/ON-Semiconductor-Image-Sensor-Powers-Academy-Award-Winning-ALEXA-Camera-from-ARRI

The M10 Sensor was manufactured by STMicroelectronics and CMOSIS.

The Arri Alexa sensor is just amazing, the color rendition, the dynamic range, the skin tones. Arri Alex proofs that Sensor size is not the main Issue.
Sales numbers would go up massively as it would not be percieved anymore like a rich mans toy.
My point is that there is still a lot of room of improvement for Sensor technology. Much more then we think. 
I understand that superior Sensors come with more limitations e.g. ISO range, but frankly I would rather live with max ISO auf 6400 and amazing colors then follow the consumer tech non-sense of reaching 100.000 ISO numbers. Sony can have that win race. 

 

The Arri uses 65watts of power. Most of the reason for the good image quality is the large Pixel wells which means it’s low resolution as you can fit only so many on the sensor. Secondly the camera does an immense amount of image processing hence the high power draw. Simply impossible for a small hand held camera. 
 

 

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No sure why you always aspect companies to jump from one sensor to another on a consumers call.

The M10-R has an amazing sensor and it is very capable in high iso. 

You tend to forget how many years it take to develop new technology , even arri took 10 years to make a new camera.

Most Sensors in camera are not smart at all, they capture light with a signal and then the processor and the software creates the magic, buying the sensor from a different market still requires to develop the software and processor.

The M10-R sensor reduced the gaps and frame around each pixel giving the capability to gather more light even at high MP

I would be totally happy with an M11 with the M10-R sensor.

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Since you ask so politely ! 
 

M11 Update: 

- The possibility of a previous design changed mentioned earlier on the thread seems to be an aborted lead. The M11 should look exactly like the M10, and have precisely the same dimension. Relief. 

- No space for EVF and Ibis (confirmed)

- Around 60MP BSI sensor with three different shooting modes for smaller files (confirmed)

- New visoflex should be compatible with M10. It will have a slightly rounder design but not much smaller. Oled hi res EVF. 

- No bottom plate to focus on weather sealing of the electronics (confirmed)

- New battery (not the same a Q2 and SL2) for almost double the duration time. 

- Maestro 3, faster buffer 

- High possibility of an electronic shutter allowing us to shoot faster than 1/4000th

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1 hour ago, cp995 said:

What's wrong with the M10-R for you?

nothing to complain on the M10-R.. but

think I would like it less delay to live view and in between shots

quicker shutter to remove ND filters from my life.

quicker ready time

and a visoflex that does not hide shutter speed

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27 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

quicker shutter to remove ND filters from my life.

quicker ready time

think I would like it less delay to live view and in between shots

+1

1/8000 mechanical could make a huge difference.

 

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