Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Guest]

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14 hours ago, lct said:

It surely was but latest 75/1.25, 90/1.5 and 35/2 M lenses need something new. A new Visoflex could do it if it is not outdated at its launch like the previous ones but a compact M (more probably L) mount mirrorless body could be part of the solution.

The 35mm apo with its closer focus contraption  only really makes sense with high quality visoflex being available on the M11 unless they mess about with the rangefinder or offer an alternative camera.

[MikeMyers]

Just a thought.  There were clear reasons why people wanted to upgrade from the M8 series cameras to the M9 - people thought it was important to have full frame, so their expectations of that a 50mm lens did with a film camera would be the same in the digital M.  

The M10 seems to be a giant leap forwards over the M9, the shape, the sensor, the menu system, and the overall "feel" of the camera.  Leica has learned a lot, and the camera shows it.  I skipped the M9, and skipped a few other, but the M10 seemed to be the perfect Leica for me.

I'm wondering what the new "selling point" might be, to prompt people to move from a M10 to a M11 ?    Why might I want to change?  For the types of images I enjoy taking on the Leica (M3 through M10) I think I've got the best I will ever have.  I've actually got more than enough, as I bought things such as the Visoflex that don't "fit" me.

Maybe there are some new, and awesome capabilities that will come with the M11, but will any of them be useful to me?  

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[Guest]

There is talk of the M11 having the leica logo already gorilla taped, which would be a massive improvement and save fiddling about getting just the right amount of black tape over the logo.

[TD11]

11 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I'm wondering what the new "selling point" might be, to prompt people to move from a M10 to a M11 ?    Why might I want to change?  For the types of images I enjoy taking on the Leica (M3 through M10) I think I've got the best I will ever have.  I've actually got more than enough, as I bought things such as the Visoflex that don't "fit" me.

Maybe there are some new, and awesome capabilities that will come with the M11, but will any of them be useful to me?  

I think Leica needs to play the Sensor Card, Leica M is the only fullframe camera on the Market that doesn't need to record Video. Which means the Sensor requirements are different.
They should focus more on dynamic range and color reproduction. Just like Phase One and Hasselblad with its Medium Format is doing.

Canon, Nikon, Fuji are all crippling themeself with the requirement of being able to film 120fps 4k footage with these sensors.
All these cameras skin colors reproductions are still garbage compared to a phase one or Hasselblad that is 5-10 years old.
They all shoot at 14bit and 12 stops of dynamic range.
Leica's M sensor should aim for 16bit and 16 stops of dynamic range, Pixels are not important.
Just like with a Phase One camera no one needs 5fps, 1.4 fps is fine.
Leica M can take a completely different path in the Sensor technology.
Sensor Image stabilisation would also be amazing.

 

 

 

[MarkP]

11 minutes ago, TD11 said:

They should focus more on dynamic range and color reproduction. Just like Phase One and Hasselblad with its Medium Format is doing...Leica's M sensor should aim for 16bit and 16 stops of dynamic range, Pixels are not important.
Just like with a Phase One camera no one needs 5fps, 1.4 fps is fine.
Leica M can take a completely different path in the Sensor technology.
Sensor Image stabilisation would also be amazing.

Spot on!

[Tom1234]

M11 Issues for Leica to Handle:

1- PRICE: Hoping for a M11 body price around $4,000 USD.  That would be twice a Sony or Nikon.  Pricing above that, even at $5,000 USD is foolishness.  

Presently the Panasonic DC-S5 is the best way to go for M lenses at $1,700.  Users rave about its color and stabilization.  Even users having used all other bodies still like the Panasonic better or as-well-as the others.  Autofocus does not mater to us Leica-M lens owners.  The Pan S5 is not a "deficient" or "cheap" camera. 

The M10 and M11 are just something to talk about.  The high price of the Leica trivializes the brand.  Few will ever own it.  This might as well be a forum on taking a ride on the fist commercial travel to the moon, or, a forum speculating on driving in Formula 1… choosing the car and team you want… how stupid… I want to actually participate. 

2- COLOR SCIENCE: Since you have to use a computer to edit digital images, you then adjust the color to your desired tones, so here you can create your own Leica Euro Color science similar to M9M by adding saturation and possibly a sharpness change to affect the micro-contrast.  So go with the Panasonic S5, since any problem it has, has a workaround. 

3- ISO: What separates digital cameras is the sensor ISO and resulting color… after that handling.  The M8, M9, and other Leica's slightly lagged with ISO so we all "struggled with them".  I await a Leica Body with a no excuses ISO.  

M10 pictures do show a willingness to let the image fall to black which sure beets falling into noise - a fine compromise choice Leica! 

Sold my M8 due to poor ISO (about 660 ISO).  Sold my M9 due to poor ISO about 880, yet it had the best color of any camera I've used,  but the replaced sensor worked its way loose - this camera was never dependable.  Sold my M9M which still was slow ISO (about 1,200 ?) under what I consider the minimum of 3200 ISO though 6400 is really the new minimum for noiseless low light ISO. 

4- DEPENDABILITY-&-REPAIR - My Struggle:  Struggled with rangefinder going out on my M7 and M8.  My M7 had a shutter that jammed and would not release.   

The rangefinder should be user adjustable for accuracy.

Also struggled with poor service, that did not seem to fix things, but just changed the lens or body to have new problems and only partially not fixing the problem I sent it in for.  Panasonic has famously good service right now (7-2021)...

5- EVF (Electronic View Finder) Is A Must yet the rangefinder could be maintained also for classic shooting, that is if the user can adjust it back into alignment, if not then drop it since it becomes more trouble than it is worth.  Hard to believe that this has not been figured out. 

6- Rear Screen: Should be able to operate the camera without using the rear screen through a "D-Mode" that you can set the defaults for.  

This means a few of the menu items need moving to dials or switches on the camera body.  I hate to have to constantly go into the menu system to make adjustments.  This has been the main reason I hate using modern digital cameras and that I sold my M8 and M9 and M9m.  Using them was almost as big a PITA as using complex computer software so I avoided the activity of using them altogether. 

 

[crony]

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Hi, I went through this thread, and its many, thoughtful contributions ...

Leica has with the M11 the same problem LAND ROVER had with the Defender successor, and MERCEDES with the G-Class.

We can wait, and see. - And one can always stay with the M9 or M10(-R) if one does not like the new model. ---

I am not sure about November 11 as an announcement date.

11/11 11:11hours is the beginning of the carnival season in Germany.

One might not be taken very seriously on that day ... 

Edited July 18, 2021 by crony
Typo

[Stephen.s1]

8 hours ago, TD11 said:

I

They should focus more on dynamic range and color reproduction. Just like Phase One and Hasselblad with its Medium Format is doing.

 

 

 

 

 

Amen!

 

[ianman]

20 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Why might I want to change?

If you don't know, you don't need to.

This is exacly why all this rubbish about better and more is complete nonsense made for the want, want, want consumerist world we live in. You either need features or you don't. If a user needs video the M240 is the best (and only) option even if the M10 is supposed to be the one M to rule them all.

[rtai]

I hope this is not off topic but is it a given there will be an M11 Monochrom?

Edited July 18, 2021 by rtai

[lct]

1 hour ago, rtai said:

I hope this is not off topic but is it a given there will be an M11 Monochrom?

There is no given about any M11 camera so far, unless you consider rumors as given.

[mmradman]

22 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Just a thought.  There were clear reasons why people wanted to upgrade from the M8 series cameras to the M9 - people thought it was important to have full frame, so their expectations of that a 50mm lens did with a film camera would be the same in the digital M.  

The M10 seems to be a giant leap forwards over the M9, the shape, the sensor, the menu system, and the overall "feel" of the camera.  Leica has learned a lot, and the camera shows it.  I skipped the M9, and skipped a few other, but the M10 seemed to be the perfect Leica for me.

I'm wondering what the new "selling point" might be, to prompt people to move from a M10 to a M11 ?    Why might I want to change?  For the types of images I enjoy taking on the Leica (M3 through M10) I think I've got the best I will ever have.  I've actually got more than enough, as I bought things such as the Visoflex that don't "fit" me.

Maybe there are some new, and awesome capabilities that will come with the M11, but will any of them be useful to me?  

In your case wait for M17, for every single  Leica user happy with yesterday technology there are probably several who look forward to camera that provide features that improve chances of taking desired picture.

Its being said now on many occasions, current crop of M lenses, probably also future models in order to squeeze all the capabilities will need focusing capabilities that exceed what M10 platform has to offer.

[Mark II]

23 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

I'm wondering what the new "selling point" might be, to prompt people to move from a M10 to a M11 ?

• improved eye relief, to be able to use the 28mm frame-lines while wearing glasses...
• ultrasonic sensor cleaning, help minimise sensor dust, similar to the system used in the Canon 5D mark II onwards
• electronic first curtain shutter, to allow live-view shooting without the lag
• a new processor, specifically one that can display a true RGB histogram like nature intended
• an improved battery life, to at least match the M typ 240

All of these should be do-able (unlike, for example, IBIS - compare the depth of the sensor in the body to that of a Canon/Sony/Nikon mirrorless camera). You might also add a fully electronic shutter to allow shooting with fast lenses wide open, although this might impact the quality of out-of-focus areas.

Sadly, I suspect that the main feature that Leica wants to add is yet another substantial price rise - which is by far the biggest downside to the M for me because it means that it is impractical to use the cameras in precisely the kind of environments and situations where the best photographs often are...

[martinot]

On 6/30/2021 at 8:42 PM, adan said:

Automobile designed by cirke:

One "control wheel" - customizable buttons for everything else, marked "A," "B," C," etc. Everyone can customized the buttons as they choose, but one schema might be:

press "A" - turning wheel to the left will turn the car left, turn the wheel to the right will turn the car right.

press "B" - turning wheel to the left accelerates the car, turning wheel to the right brakes the car.

press "C" - turning wheel to the left accelerates the car in reverse, turning wheel to the right brakes the car.

press "D" - turning wheel to the left locks the doors, turning wheel to the right unlocks the doors.

press "E" - turning wheel left increases car interior temperature, turning wheel right decreases interior temperature

press "F" - turning wheel left turns on, and then increases speed, of windshield-wiper, turning wheel right will decrease windshield-wiper speed, eventually to OFF.

.....etc.

 

 

Well. You are actually not so far off from reality as you might think.

Not the actual steering wheel itself,  but the scroll wheels on my cars steering wheel, actually is used for different and multiple purposes depending on what you do, and your settings.

 

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[adan]

It was only a matter of time.

I guess I see this as - it allows you keep your hands on the wheel. But perhaps not keep your mind on the road......

[hdmesa]

On 7/17/2021 at 1:27 PM, MikeMyers said:

...Maybe there are some new, and awesome capabilities that will come with the M11, but will any of them be useful to me?  

I don't know, will they?

 

[rramesh]

3 hours ago, martinot said:

Well. You are actually not so far off from reality as you might think.

Not the actual steering wheel itself,  but the scroll wheels on my cars steering wheel, actually is used for different and multiple purposes depending on what you do, and your settings.

And you will need insurance in case you crash into your subject!

[roma]

7 hours ago, Mark II said:Sadly, I suspect that the main feature that Leica wants to add is yet another substantial price rise - which is by far the biggest downside to the M for me because it means that it is impractical to use the cameras in precisely the kind of environments and situations where the best photographs often are...

Same here. Where I like to go, having a $15k camera around my neck would make me very conscious of the camera instead of focusing on making images. Same reason I will probably never get the 35 APO, as much as I want one.

Faster operation, better battery life, and improved sensor (without high megapixel count) is my wish for a standard M11, which I will probably be buying used from someone who barely used it on a vacation or 2, just as I did with buying an m10 and saving almost $3 grand 😀.

[MikeMyers]

18 hours ago, roma said:

Same here. Where I like to go, having a $15k camera around my neck would make me very conscious of the camera instead of focusing on making images. Same reason I will probably never get the 35 APO, as much as I want one.

Faster operation, better battery life, and improved sensor (without high megapixel count) is my wish for a standard M11, which I will probably be buying used from someone who barely used it on a vacation or 2, just as I did with buying an m10 and saving almost $3 grand 😀.

Even with black tape over the logo, and a very old looking lens, I'm always aware that if I met up with the wrong people, I might have the camera stolen, and I would be unable to replace it.  It cost me around $7k, and then there's the lens.  If I travel, or go walking around in crowds, I think I would take my Fuji.  There's also a concern about image size - suppose each image is 60 megs, or 600 megs.  I will be looking for a faster computer, and more disk space.

Finally, if I'm pretending to emulate Ansel Adams, and put my camera on a tripod to capture the best image, I'm not sure that the Leica is the best camera to use, and if I'm following all the advice here about zone focusing, what good are all those additional megapixels, if most of my image is out of focus?

People write that thanks to depth of field, more of my image will be in focus, which is wrong.  The truth is more of my image will be in acceptable focus, but all those markings are based on a film camera making an 8x10 print held at arm's length as I recall.  If I want a mural sized print, I need to be aware of this.

Bottom line, my M10 is as "perfect" for me as my M3 used to be.  People still write that the M3 is the "best" film Leica ever.

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[MikeMyers]

On 7/18/2021 at 1:54 PM, mmradman said:

In your case wait for M17, for every single  Leica user happy with yesterday technology there are probably several who look forward to camera that provide features that improve chances of taking desired picture.

Its being said now on many occasions, current crop of M lenses, probably also future models in order to squeeze all the capabilities will need focusing capabilities that exceed what M10 platform has to offer.

Disregard me - I'm one of the goofy people who would still prefer to buy the old style Land Rover.