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Leica M11 - your next camera?


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42 minutes ago, frame-it said:

"A back-illuminated sensor or backside illuminated sensor (BSI) is an imaging sensor for digital cameras with a different layout from other sensors that allows more light to be collected at the pixel level. The resulting images have less digital noise, and low-light performance can be improved by as much as a stop or more."

 

https://www.photo-digitaltransitions.com/bsi-sensors-demystified/

 

https://www.adorama.com/alc/faq-whats-a-back-side-illuminated-sensor/

 

In theory, there is more light with BSI, but in practice, the amount of added light has no noticeable influence on the noise characteristics of FF cameras. That has been demonstrated when Sony and Nikon switched their FF cameras to BSI sensors, and no improvement in noise was observable.

The assumption that switching to BSI noticeably improves the noise characteristics has been persistent. It is valid for smaller sensors only.

Some discussion here: Re: BSI and Stacked sensors.

BSI technology has been most effective as marketing tool.

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Another unofficial factoid:  The price will be €111,121. 😳

These discussions invariably mix heritage and legacy issues with the latest and greatest, which doesn’t help. The M camera isn’t a test bed for the newest developments, or the mostest of everything - Sony does that better than anyone.  Nikon has its own aesthetic, and Canon something different again.  Each is battling in a difficult market where the cellphone camera reigns supreme in the number of cameras used and images taken. The M camera needs to compete for sales in the same market

For the newcomers here, this is the same routine with every new or rumored release.  First, a wish list (search related M11 discussions). Then rumors.  Then release (or not if false rumor * ). Then complaints. Then praises. Until the next cycle. Some users of existing model firmly state up front that they are content, and even opposed to a new iteration... these folks often become the new model’s best advocates (usually after Jono’s review). * Leica Rumors, the source here, had a good track

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13 hours ago, Steven said:

Maybe it has to do with my memory card ? I use the pro grades V90 and they are very slow on my SL2S as well. Play back is unbearable. 

Perhaps, but I am not sure. I have very fast SanDisk and Lexar cards, but also think my M240 is a bit slow. Perhaps the M10 is much faster, but from trying it out in camera store I found it to still be on the slow side (of course I could not change or check the memory cards in the demo units).

I hope a new processor and new sensor will make the M11 a little but quicker and more agile, even if I am happy with my M-E. Even if I use it mostly for slow photography and works well for that, it is always nice to see a less slow and laggy device (improves it as a responsive tool).

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7 minutes ago, martinot said:

I have very fast SanDisk and Lexar cards, but also think my M240 is a bit slow.

Cards speedness do not change anything to the M240's slowness, in my experience, as far as startup and wakeup times are concerned at least. Otherwise the body is normally responsive within the limits of its buffer. Old body too but it is another story.

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12 hours ago, lct said:

Cards speedness do not change anything to the M240's slowness, in my experience, as far as startup and wakeup times are concerned at least. Otherwise the body is normally responsive within the limits of its buffer. Old body too but it is another story.

Yes, I think you are right that SD cards does not make any big difference in most M cameras. Still a great camera even it it is a little slow booting up time. Very happy with it anyway. I notice the M-E is bit better with snapping several photos in a row compared to the normal 240, and probably due to its double sized buffer. 

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On 6/11/2021 at 7:52 PM, SrMi said:

 

In theory, there is more light with BSI, but in practice, the amount of added light has no noticeable influence on the noise characteristics of FF cameras. That has been demonstrated when Sony and Nikon switched their FF cameras to BSI sensors, and no improvement in noise was observable.

The assumption that switching to BSI noticeably improves the noise characteristics has been persistent. It is valid for smaller sensors only.

Some discussion here: Re: BSI and Stacked sensors.

BSI technology has been most effective as marketing tool.

From what I see...all over the internet since Thom first wrote this piece in 2015 (?), I don't think I can completely agree. Is there a potential base BSI architecture is a slightly less light-gatherer on larger sensors than smaller sensor? Maybe to some slight extent or as your wrote "theoretically" or even better, just enough for all those DPReview threads on the same for how many years now? 

In the meantime almost every major manufacturer racing to implement the benefits of BSI on Full Frame seems a very expensive venture if there was no merit other tan marketing ! And now Leica users are also enjoying the benefits in the SL2-S. 

"In-depth comparisons. https://www.dxomark.com/leica-sl2-s-sensor-review-optimized-for-low-light/

Throughout the sensitivity range, the SL2-S’s sensor performance is almost identical to the 24 MP Panasonic Lumix DC-S1 and the Nikon Z 6, both of which use a similar 24 MP BSI-CMOS sensor. Rather than look at those, however, we’ll take this opportunity to compare the SL2-S with the original Leica SL and the Leica M10 instead. Both of these cameras feature a front-side illuminated 24 MP sensor, so we’ll highlight the improvements made in the SL2-S and see why Leica has returned to using a 24 MP sensor.

Portrait (color depth)

The Leica M10 and the original Leica SL share very similar color depth for much of the sensitivity range. However, with slightly cleaner files from a lower minimum ISO, Leica managed to wring an extra 0.6 bit from the SL sensor, taking the maximum color depth to an impressive 25 bits. As you might expect, the BSI sensor trumps both for maximum color depth at 25.2 bits. At first sight that’s only by the narrowest of margins until you realize that the SL2-S’s minimum measured ISO is nearly double that of the SL. In fact, it’s not just at the minimum sensitivity where the SL2-S sensor outdoes the M10 and SL sensor, but throughout the range, complete with a slight increase in the response between ISO 400 and ISO 800.

Both the the M10 and SL2-S just dip beneath our 20-bit measurement threshold for good image quality (green dotted line on the graph below) at ISO 3200, but the SL does so at ISO 1600. All three hover around our 14-bit threshold for acceptable image quality at ISO 25,600."

 

So whatever is going on in the SLS-2 BSI architecture, I'd like to see if that can be implemented in the next M camera.

 

 

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