Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[michaelbrenner]

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16 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I think you forgot AF with manual lenses..

you probably should look at a different system

But then it wouldn't be an M.  Besides, AF is a crutch for the inexperienced (as is burst mode)... real photographers take superb action shots by setting appropriate DOF and taking a SINGLE shot to capture the critical moment..  That is the essence of street photography and action- or sports-based events.  And they do everything by touch while the camera is still in the bag... 8-)

 

 

 

[Steven]

10 hours ago, michaelbrenner said:

... here we go

1.  By far the most important innovation to increase utility for the next M is low-light performance while keeping the ability to use true low ISO.

2.  A very close second is "instant wake-up" from sleep mode or when turning the camera on.

3.  An innovation to prevent nose grease from getting on the camera when using the EVF.

4.  GPS should be built-in, not a part of the EVF so that all photos can be tagged.

5.  A built-in optical method to be able to use the rangefinder AND compose simultaneously, ideally through the existing optical viewport, when using wide-angle lenses while keeping the frame lines clearly visible with enough margin to see out-of-frame action would be very helpful as well as a level indicator viewable through the optical viewfinder appearing automatically the wide angle lenses are used.  Maybe also a method of zooming the optical viewfinder when using long lenses upon demand.  Being able to move the rangefinder patch at the same time would be of great use.  For example, suppose you want to focus on a model's nearest eye.  Move the rangefinder patch to where you want it, get initial focus, push the button to zoom in and then fine tune.

6.  An HDR warning light in the optical view finder so you know when the sensor has a large amount of over or underexposure resulting in loss of information  is occurring and can compensate taking by multiple shots a different levels of exposure compensation.  This could optionally happen automatically if an electronic shutter were implemented or possibly bracketing could be automatically used on an optional basis.

7.  Another helpful item for those of us who enjoy low-light photography is a warning of when objects in the viewfinder are moving quickly enough to cause motion blur with recommended minimum shutter speed to prevent that blur.

8.  A DOF indicator in the optical viewfinder, such as -1/+2, meaning DOF extends one foot in front of the focus plane and two feet behind it.  Hand-in-hand with this would be a more accurate aperture estimation method.

9.  A warning indicator in the optical viewfinder that the lens cap is on.

10.  And... removing blackout time when using the EVF and having frame lines in the EVF so one can see out-of-frame action like when using the optical viewfinder.

I agree with 1,2 and 4 (although I don’t care for 4). 
 

my realistic wish list for the m11 is: 

- do not increase the body size 

- instant wake up time 

- 1/8000 shutter speed 

- favor low light performance instead of high MP (like they did for the sl2s). 

 - better buffer as with my M10R I often get limited by the slow burst rate. 
 

if they do that only, it’s enough for me to upgrade. 

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[SrMi]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

I agree with 1,2 and 4 (although I don’t care for 4). 
 

my realistic wish list for the m11 is: 

- do not increase the body size 

- instant wake up time 

- 1/8000 shutter speed 

- favor low light performance instead of high MP (like they did for the sl2s). 

 - better buffer as with my M10R I often get limited by the slow burst rate. 
 

if they do that only, it’s enough for me to upgrade. 

Note that M10-R's low-light performance (high ISO) is already the same as Sony a7rIV and one stop better than SL2:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M10-R,Leica SL2,Sony ILCE-7RM4

My wishlist:

- a smaller external EVF with a higher refresh rate

- a thinner and lighter body

- M10-D's fake lever for better hand-holding

- separate access to battery and SD card, and without removing the bottom plate.

- tiltable rear LCD

Edited May 30, 2021 by SrMi

[michaelbrenner]

8 hours ago, Steven said:

I agree with 1,2 and 4 (although I don’t care for 4). 
 

my realistic wish list for the m11 is: 

- do not increase the body size 

- instant wake up time 

- 1/8000 shutter speed 

- favor low light performance instead of high MP (like they did for the sl2s). 

 - better buffer as with my M10R I often get limited by the slow burst rate. 
 

if they do that only, it’s enough for me to upgrade. 

Yes, 1/8000 shutter and/or lower true bottom ISO.

[michaelbrenner]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

 

- a smaller external EVF with a higher refresh rate

 

Higher refresh rate, higher resolution, improved contrast, and make sure the knob adjustment is firm enough so that it doesn't get knocked out of focus every time the camera is deployed from the bag.

[elmars]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Steven:

The latest info I got regarding the m11 is that it will have a 60MP bsi sensor and a second firmware update (not at launch) will enable user to shoot 24MP and 36MP compressed RAWs  

What I can confirm for sure is that it will have NO ibis and NO evf. Not even “à la carte” evf version as some have hoped  

I know the 60MP sensor seems a little far fetched, but my information this year has been always spot on, and I’m about to prove it again with the product release of June 24th  

at least, they are better than Leica rumors.com who still don’t have any idea that something is going to be announced on June 24th! 😂 

 

I don‘t believe in 60 MP. Why should Leica canibalise the S-System? And why should Leica be the forerunner in the megapixel race? They never were and they gave us the SL2-S with 24 MP after(!) the SL2 with 40 MP. There is a strong opinion that 24 MP is enough. Why should they go for the risk to break this opinion?

I think that the M11 will have a BSI Sensor with about 40 MP and excellent low ISO capability, better wake up time, better live view reactivity, better EVF, USB-C, built in GPS, better W-Lan. These things are not hard to predict. Hard to predict are my two big wishes for a thumb rest like on the M10-D and a diopter control. 

[Steven]

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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Note that M10-R's low-light performance (high ISO) is already the same as Sony a7rIV and one stop better than SL2:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M10-R,Leica SL2,Sony ILCE-7RM4

My wishlist:

- a smaller external EVF with a higher refresh rate

- a thinner and lighter body

- M10-D's fake lever for better hand-holding

- separate access to battery and SD card, and without removing the bottom plate.

- tiltable rear LCD

I absolutely love your wishlist. I completely forgot my most important feature. The fake lever. 
Regarding the low light, I’m not saying I’m unhappy with the current performance. I, saying that if I can one improvement, it wouldn’t be MPs, but rather a low light capability like the magical sl2S 

[Steven]

53 minutes ago, elmars said:

I don‘t believe in 60 MP. Why should Leica canibalise the S-System? And why should Leica be the forerunner in the megapixel race? They never were and they gave us the SL2-S with 24 MP after(!) the SL2 with 40 MP. There is a strong opinion that 24 MP is enough. Why should they go for the risk to break this opinion?

I think that the M11 will have a BSI Sensor with about 40 MP and excellent low ISO capability, better wake up time, better live view reactivity, better EVF, USB-C, built in GPS, better W-Lan. These things are not hard to predict. Hard to predict are my two big wishes for a thumb rest like on the M10-D and a diopter control. 

It’s hard for me to believe it as well. But my source has never been wrong so far, unfortunately. And he will prove it again with the announcement of June 24th. 

[elmars]

June 24th will be the CL2. A new model is urgently necessary. 

[Steven]

3 minutes ago, elmars said:

June 24th will be the CL2. A new model is urgently necessary. 

Nope. I mean yes, it’s necessary, but no it won’t be. 

[Lee S]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Note that M10-R's low-light performance (high ISO) is already the same as Sony a7rIV and one stop better than SL2:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica M10-R,Leica SL2,Sony ILCE-7RM4

My wishlist:

- a smaller external EVF with a higher refresh rate

- a thinner and lighter body

- M10-D's fake lever for better hand-holding

- separate access to battery and SD card, and without removing the bottom plate.

- tiltable rear LCD

But the M10R is no better than the M10 for low light dynamic range. I wonder on what basis Leica says the sensor has higher dynamic range than the vanilla M10.

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[jankap]

What about light field technic

1 hour ago, elmars said:

I don‘t believe in 60 MP.

What about light field technology? It seems, that the M still is in the 1950 lane. Interesting is the wish for the fake lever in this respect.What about a lever to be able to choose between analog (film) and digital ( sensor)?

[Lee S]

1 hour ago, Lee S said:

But the M10R is no better than the M10 for low light dynamic range. I wonder on what basis Leica says the sensor has higher dynamic range than the vanilla M10.

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Can’t edit my post but assuming they are likely quoting downsized print dynamic range. 

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

But my source has never been wrong so far, unfortunately. 

Repeating it won’t make it true.  Your friend initially got the number wrong on the SL 24-70, predicting an SL 28-70.  He isn’t perfect or  immune to whiffing on a specific number.

 

Jeff

Edited May 30, 2021 by Jeff S

[lct]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

It’s hard for me to believe it as well. But my source has never been wrong so far, unfortunately. And he will prove it again with the announcement of June 24th. 

Wait and see . 60MP for the next M11-R yes perhaps but for the M11? Would make 100MP for the M11-R then? Sounds like a joke but i have no clue at all so i may be completely wrong.

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Lee S said:

Can’t edit my post but assuming they are likely quoting downsized print dynamic range. 

The graph that you quoted (Photographic Dynamic Range) is already based on a normalized (scaled down) image. That is why high resolution sensors of the same technology have the same PDR as the low resolution sensors.

The PhotonsToPhotos measurements show the same dynamic range for M10-R and M10. Sean Reid's review shows a very slight improvement of M10-R at >= ISO 3200 (vs. M10-P), though he suspected some high ISO noise smoothing (not detected in PhotonsToPhotos)

I do not know why Leica claimed better high ISO performance of M10-R. 

[elmars]

It is my practical experience that there is one stop more. Precisely: I can recover highlight with one more stop of overexposure than with the M10. I made this observation as a betatester of the M10-R. Nobody told us before about this. It was our/my own finding. 

[SrMi]

13 minutes ago, elmars said:

It is my practical experience that there is one stop more. Precisely: I can recover highlight with one more stop of overexposure than with the M10. I made this observation as a betatester of the M10-R. Nobody told us before about this. It was our/my own finding. 

Recoverable highlights are related to exposure measurements not to dynamic range.

[rtai]

Every new M model so far has had a monochrome version not far behind so I’ll assume there will be an M11M. All I ask for is please eliminate live view shutter lag so I can use it for street photography.

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[elmars]

I don‘t know too much of this definitions. But if I expose the same light situation with the same exposure data on the M10 and M10-R and get the same brightness on both pictures, it is an advantage to me that I can recover the highlights of the M10-R more.