Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[martinot]

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On 5/3/2021 at 4:37 AM, NZDavid said:

I think the Porsche parallel is that it's an example of a product that has evolved while retaining much the same iconic shape and market appeal. 

Who thinks of these changes, engineers or marketers?

There are few classic products of such longevity as the Leica M. Innovation is always welcome but radical change is a big risk. If it ain't broke...

The Taycan (which I like) seems to be a clear break away from the ancient 911.

[martinot]

On 5/6/2021 at 5:33 PM, lct said:

There are reasons to use M lenses that are not the same as using rangefinders. Very-Special-Mer-Since-The-Seventies speaking .

There are reasons to use rangefinders that are not the same as using M lenses.

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[martinot]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:51 PM, Pixeleater said:

In 1987 I purchased a new 900 Turbo and it was a blast to drive. Unique aesthetic at that time and had its own vibe. The Saab 9000 was the model that crashed interest in Saab for me. Just plain vanilla fudge (not the band) and as I recall quality control was sorely lacking in it.

My father used to have a 9000 (when it was quite new), and the quality was way better the old 99 SAABs. They had some problems typical for the model (just like all cars), but ride quality, interior quality and build quality was way better than all previous SAAB cars.

 

[martinot]

14 hours ago, SiggiGun said:

Leica Rumors posted today on FB an image of the bottom of a possible Q3. But I guess it is the upcoming M11 with 2 SD Cards slots. 

Affaire à suivre... 

Would love to see dual SD card slots on M11. 

[Herr Barnack]

4 minutes ago, martinot said:

Would love to see dual SD card slots on M11. 

Yes, as long as the M11 stays the same size as the M10 and does not return to the M240's dimensions.

[lct]

38 minutes ago, martinot said:

Just mount the M-lenses on an SL-camera. Done.

Undone. Too big a camera. Also there is no mechanical link between the L mount and M lenses. Impossible to trigger focus magnification by turning the focus ring of M lenses on any SL, TL or CL camera.  

[Pixeleater]

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48 minutes ago, martinot said:

My father used to have a 9000 (when it was quite new), and the quality was way better the old 99 SAABs. They had some problems typical for the model (just like all cars), but ride quality, interior quality and build quality was way better than all previous SAAB cars.

 

YMMV, but speaking for the 1987 900 Turbo only, I disagree 100%. It was ride quality, interior quality, and build quality that kept me away from the 9000. Characterizing the 9000 as better than the Saab 99 is one thing, but stating all previous Saab models were inferior to the 9000 is almost funny.

 

 

[Stephen.s1]

My next Leica is on order and I'm awaiting it's arrival.  It's called a Fujifilm GFX100S.   Perhaps the M12 will attract me, (if I'm still alive)  <grins>

 

[martinot]

1 hour ago, Pixeleater said:

YMMV, but speaking for the 1987 900 Turbo only, I disagree 100%. It was ride quality, interior quality, and build quality that kept me away from the 9000. Characterizing the 9000 as better than the Saab 99 is one thing, but stating all previous Saab models were inferior to the 9000 is almost funny.

 

 

The 900 was a refinement of the 99 model, and released in 1978. As SAAB (as usual) was poor and unprofitable, they could not afford to develop a complete new car. The old 99, launched in 1968, had started to decline in sales. The market department wanted something new, but the company did not have the money to spend on R&D that was needed. The market department came up with the idea to use the existing 99 model, but make it a little bit larger and and with some improvements. But basically the 900 is an old model with the start in 1968.

The SAAB 9000 is a very different car. It is a much larger car than the 99/900, and has its history from a co-operation between SAAB and the Italian Lancia/Fiat and Alfa Romeo. The co-operation was yet another way for the poor SAAB to be able to fund the development of a completely new car, by sharing the R&D costs with the other companies. On their own SAAB could never have afforded the development costs on their own. It was launched in 1984 (as the 1985 model being the first).

You are of course entitled to your opinion on which car you prefer.

It is fine that you prefer the 99/900 model, but it is a very much smaller and older car, with less modern technologies (1968 vs 1984).

 

[martinot]

1 hour ago, Stephen.s1 said:

My next Leica is on order and I'm awaiting it's arrival.  It's called a Fujifilm GFX100S.   Perhaps the M12 will attract me, (if I'm still alive)  <grins>

 

Great camera - congratulations! 🙂

[lct]

10 hours ago, adan said:

Russian Roulette is speculation - "I speculate that the pistol chamber pointed at my head is one of the ones without a bullet."

Haha straight to hell with a pistol. You'd better take a revolver

[Pixeleater]

6 hours ago, martinot said:

The 900 was a refinement of the 99 model, and released in 1978. As SAAB (as usual) was poor and unprofitable, they could not afford to develop a complete new car. The old 99, launched in 1968, had started to decline in sales. The market department wanted something new, but the company did not have the money to spend on R&D that was needed. The market department came up with the idea to use the existing 99 model, but make it a little bit larger and and with some improvements. But basically the 900 is an old model with the start in 1968.

The SAAB 9000 is a very different car. It is a much larger car than the 99/900, and has its history from a co-operation between SAAB and the Italian Lancia/Fiat and Alfa Romeo. The co-operation was yet another way for the poor SAAB to be able to fund the development of a completely new car, by sharing the R&D costs with the other companies. On their own SAAB could never have afforded the development costs on their own. It was launched in 1984 (as the 1985 model being the first).

You are of course entitled to your opinion on which car you prefer.

It is fine that you prefer the 99/900 model, but it is a very much smaller and older car, with less modern technologies (1968 vs 1984).

 

Wow, talking down something that is smaller and older with less modern technologies? Are you an M hater, too? LOL. The great thing is there is room for both types of technology and I’m happy that you’re Dad’s experience with the 9000 was positive 

Edited May 15, 2021 by Pixeleater

[jankap]

15 hours ago, martinot said:

Do you wish for a new iiif instead of a new M?

I wanted to point out, that in the past Leicas could be upgraded with new features. Mechanical ones!!

[martinot]

8 hours ago, Pixeleater said:

Are you an M hater, too? LOL. 

No, of course not. I love my M camera, and look forward to a new improved 11.

A little surprised that you try to bash me with such unfunded comments.I accept that you have strong feelings about cars, but remember that cars and cameras are just material things and products. No reason to take different product preferences as personal insults. It is fine to have different opinions.

I am not sure the 9000 was a great success, as SAAB (in difference to Leica) continues to be non profitable and loss making. So I am i no way fan of either 9000 (even if it was a great car for us, and a good upgrade over our previous Volvo 245 estate) or SAAB in general. But I do not dislike them either. My sister used to have a better used 900, and she was kind enough to borrow it to me when I needed to. So i have driven a lot of 900 over the years as well.

Anyway, to come back to the comparison between Leica and SAAB, I think it does not hold water. Even if SAAB had some great engineers and great designers, they always had poor corporate management. It was never any real profit making company, and a big loss for its share holders over all years.

Leica Camera has been both up and down financially, but they have survived much longer, and been more profitable, than the SAAB car manufacture (the other SAAB companies stil remain).

[Pixeleater]

38 minutes ago, martinot said:

No, of course not. I love my M camera, and look forward to a new improved 11.

A little surprised that you try to bash me with such unfunded comments.I accept that you have strong feelings about cars, but remember that cars and cameras are just material things and products. No reason to take different product preferences as personal insults. It is fine to have different opinions.

I am not sure the 9000 was a great success, as SAAB (in difference to Leica) continues to be non profitable and loss making. So I am i no way fan of either 9000 (even if it was a great car for us, and a good upgrade over our previous Volvo 245 estate) or SAAB in general. But I do not dislike them either. My sister used to have a better used 900, and she was kind enough to borrow it to me when I needed to. So i have driven a lot of 900 over the years as well.

Anyway, to come back to the comparison between Leica and SAAB, I think it does not hold water. Even if SAAB had some great engineers and great designers, they always had poor corporate management. It was never any real profit making company, and a big loss for its share holders over all years.

Leica Camera has been both up and down financially, but they have survived much longer, and been more profitable, than the SAAB car manufacture (the other SAAB companies stil remain).

I’m glad you love your M. 

[martinot]

2 minutes ago, Pixeleater said:

I’m glad you love your M. 

You're welcome. I'm glad that it pleases you.

[drDave]

Probably a fixed plate like the Q's, but how is 36mpix better than the 10r?

[ivohula]

If it has IBIS, perfect microlens array in front of sensor and an EVF, my deposit is on its way.

It is time to split the M line into 2 streams, one with evf and one with rangefinder. Keep the body size the same. The evf is much cheaper to produce and should be reflected in the lower  MSRP. Sales should decide future path of M line. 

Do not need video, more pixels, autofocus or higher frame rates. Need more sharper files more often without bulk. To me, the M line is all about small weight and size and outstanding file quality. To get the best files most often, it is time for ibis and evf.

[lct]

12 minutes ago, ivohula said:

Do not need video, more pixels, autofocus or higher frame rates. Need more sharper files more often without bulk. To me, the M line is all about small weight and size and outstanding file quality. To get the best files most often, it is time for ibis and evf.

+1. You mean with an M mount i guess.

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[lct]

14 minutes ago, ivohula said:

It is time to split the M line into 2 streams, one with evf and one with rangefinder. Keep the body size the same. The evf is much cheaper to produce and should be reflected in the lower  MSRP. Sales should decide future path of M line. 

2 streams not necessarily. There have been M cameras w/o rangefinders in Leitz/Leica history already. As for getting a lower MSRP it would be surprising if the body has IBIS as it should. This way M lens users would have the choice on equal terms between tradition and modernity.