Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

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5 minutes ago, lct said:

This is a gear sub-forum indeed. Photos are shown to illustrate cameras and lenses capabilities more so than skills of photographers.

Agreed 👍🏻😊

[pgk]

29 minutes ago, mcpallesen said:

But let’s be frank and call it gear forums not photo forums from now on then.

But we do need photographic gear in order to take photos. Content of the images is subjective, depends on what you are trying to achieve and may or may not show off the cameras technical abilities that the images were taken on. Here are a couple I like, both on M cameras (M8 and M9), from NZ and Scotland. I don't think an M11 would make either better or worse.

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[ravinj]

40 minutes ago, pgk said:

But we do need photographic gear in order to take photos. Content of the images is subjective, depends on what you are trying to achieve and may or may not show off the cameras technical abilities that the images were taken on. Here are a couple I like, both on M cameras (M8 and M9), from NZ and Scotland. I don't think an M11 would make either better or worse.

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Love the first one!

[LocalHero1953]

This dispute in the last few pages about the capabilities of the M arose (I think - it was a long time ago) because I took issue with someone who said/suggested/implied that the M encouraged or best suited 'slow' photography, or required you to 'slow down'. I find the M well suited to 'fast' photography, in the sense of assisting and supporting the fast responses of the photographer and catching the action: from seeing a moment to capturing is very quick, if you know your camera (as with any camera). Other cameras can do the same, of course, but the M loses nothing to them, and in some aspects (a real-time, larger than the image, OVF) is better.

No, it is not suited to long lens photography, so any sports or action photography that requires a long lens is out (unless you convert the M to a 'normal' mirrorless by adding an EVF). I have used the M for close up action on stage (and, of course, the all-action rugrats of the family), and others have demonstrated the same. This isn't a case of hammering a screw into a wall, but using a tool that is very well suited to the job.

[FrozenInTime]

52 minutes ago, pgk said:

But we do need photographic gear in order to take photos. Content of the images is subjective, depends on what you are trying to achieve and may or may not show off the cameras technical abilities that the images were taken on. Here are a couple I like, both on M cameras (M8 and M9), from NZ and Scotland. I don't think an M11 would make either better or worse.

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A pure gear forum response would be  - distracting secondary longitudinal chromatic aberration 😉

Human response - such a beautiful thing to experience 🙂 

 

[pgk]

30 minutes ago, ravinj said:

Love the first one!

I prefer the second. Just as well we are all different.

[adan]

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2 hours ago, mcpallesen said:

With all due respect, you missed the point. I highlighted Peter Turnley not for technical ability but for “picture”/story telling ability.

If you want a story - here's a story. Note the competitors, listed at left. Part of it happens to include "sports" of a kind.

https://www.poy.org/69/34/second_01.php

Here's another (also sports-related): Issue 02/2017 (top) - cover, and pages 16-43 (although you can look at the others as well ). http://www.coloradoseen.com/2017/

[adan]

Anyway, to help Artin get back to M11 stuff....

I'm a touchy-feely guy - I won't make any decision on paper specs or rumours alone (however true).

I'm going to wait until I get some downloadable sample image files (full-res .DNG) to play with - that is what sold me on the M10. Leica may offer some - some review sites will likely also have some after the announcement.

- I'll be looking at high ISOs, and where banding kicks in (12500 on the base M10) - if that and noise overall gains 1 stop (20000-25600), that ticks a box.

- I'll be looking at the color rendering and tone curves and highlight headroom (as always).

- If there is a reduced-res .DNG option, that will tick a box - unless it is a crop mode (bahh!) or unless it seriously gimps the "rawness" of the data (like the Canon/Nikon sRAW modes).

- Whether Leica has added a flare-baffle inside the lens mount - that will definitely be worth 10 extra-credit points.

If the ISO and file sizes don't come through, I will hold off in hopes of an "M11-S" with a 24-Mpixel sensor.

[threeseed]

My random guesses for M11:

1) Same 61MP BSI CMOS sensor as the Sigma FP-L which we know fits and works well with M lenses. Leica customises to support older lenses.

2) Improved UV and IR sensor filters as described in this patent.

3) New Visoflex is smaller as they will remove the GPS unit. Instead M11 will have Bluetooth LE for always-on pairing to phone.

4) USB-C with power delivery and drive support (for offloading photos).

5) Battery and mechanism as per Q2.

6) Buttons align to Q2 i.e. Play/Fn/Menu on back and the top will be the equivalent of the thumbwheel button (by default set to Live View).

Edited October 24, 2021 by threeseed

[Photoworks]

14 hours ago, mcpallesen said:

I highlighted Peter Turnley not for technical ability but for “picture”/story telling ability.

Peter hates talking about gear but lovee talking images, stories and most importantly, talking to his subjects. 

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Last year I run into Peter a few times, I saw him work and we talked a few times.

I don't think he is part of the press anymore, he is doing his personal stories and shows and workshop.
Over the years he mastered communication true images, he talk to the subject and take in there stories and name, often taking 10-15 for a photo and working the seen.

I respect the drive he has to find stories and go out and created projects, and most respectable is that hi completes them. I see many professionals been very creative but they never get anything finished. Many photographer are not very technical and that is ok. they know exposure and are happy with a simple camera like M10.
Peter is not afraid of cropping a lot. 

His photos are often dramatized , that is his vision and history coming into prints. Images are reflection of the photographer.

 

[Datsch]

It looks to me like there is no screen bezel or buttons visible from above as there is for the M10 ... this can mean only one of two things ---

1. The new M11 is screenless! Hooray! If you want a screen, then you can get an M11-S  -- the screened model --   😄 , (for a mere £800 extra) OR:

2. The screen is flush with the back of the camera, very snazzy. The lack of evident buttons means it might be touch screen only -- not a stretch what with the T and T2 ... so all us left-eye shooters will be inadvertently changing settings with our nose ... 🤥

On 10/23/2021 at 6:47 AM, Ktsa5239 said:

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I can at least dream about #1 ... just the essentials, honestly it would be great. The purpose of the function button is to initiate wifi ...

Also, looks like there is a thumb nubbin but no wheel I can see ...

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Datsch

[evikne]

41 minutes ago, Datsch said:

It looks to me like there is no screen bezel or buttons visible from above as there is for the M10 ... this can mean only one of two things ---

1. The new M11 is screenless! Hooray! If you want a screen, then you can get an M11-S  -- the screened model --   😄 , (for a mere £800 extra) OR:

2. The screen is flush with the back of the camera, very snazzy. The lack of evident buttons means it might be touch screen only -- not a stretch what with the T and T2 ... so all us left-eye shooters will be inadvertently changing settings with our nose ... 🤥

I can at least dream about #1 ... just the essentials, honestly it would be great. The purpose of the function button is to initiate wifi ...

Also, looks like there is a thumb nubbin but no wheel I can see ...

I guess the screen is there as usual. When I hold up my M10 in the same angle, the screen bezel disappears just behind the edge, the same with the thumb wheel.

Dr. Kaufmann has said that a screen is an important part of a digital camera, so I am more afraid of the opposite – that there will not be an M11-D! I cross my fingers that the rumors are false.

Edited October 24, 2021 by evikne

[AndreasG]

vor 38 Minuten schrieb evikne:

Dr. Kaufmann has said that a screen is an important part of a digital camera,

So I wonder why 1000+ enthusiasts bought the M10-D (including myself)?

[adan]

1 hour ago, AndreasG said:

So I wonder why 1000+ enthusiasts bought the M10-D (including myself)?

A little perspective, please.

In 2020, despite a pandemic recession, and only though the first 9 months, global ICL camera sales (SLR and mirrorless) totalled 3.362 million units.

In that context, "1000+" (0.001+ million) is what is called, in technical terms, "a rounding error."

https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-plummeted-as-much-as-54/

[cirke]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

Dr. Kaufmann has said that a screen is an important part of a digital camera

The screen is an important part of the camera for right-handed people but it is a constant annoyance for left-handed people

[michaelbrenner]

31 minutes ago, adan said:

A little perspective, please.

In 2020, despite a pandemic recession, and only though the first 9 months, global ICL camera sales (SLR and mirrorless) totalled 3.362 million units.

In that context, "1000+" (0.001+ million) is what is called, in technical terms, "a rounding error."

https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-plummeted-as-much-as-54/

The relevant performance metric is profit, not market share.  To make the math easy, let's say 1000 units at $10k each with a 50% profit margin, so $5k profit per unit or $5k * 1000 = $5 million in profit on $10 million in revenue or about 2% of annual gross revenue and probably about 4% of annual gross profit, assuming the profit margin for that product is about double the average of other products produced by Leica.

[threeseed]

2 hours ago, Datsch said:

2. The screen is flush with the back of the camera, very snazzy. The lack of evident buttons means it might be touch screen only -- not a stretch what with the T and T2 ... so all us left-eye shooters will be inadvertently changing settings with our nose ... 🤥

 

The screen is flush on the Q2.

Leica is likely to align Q2-M11 in a number of areas to help people easily move between them.

[NigelG]

37 minutes ago, adan said:

A little perspective, please.

In 2020, despite a pandemic recession, and only though the first 9 months, global ICL camera sales (SLR and mirrorless) totalled 3.362 million units.

In that context, "1000+" (0.001+ million) is what is called, in technical terms, "a rounding error."

https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-plummeted-as-much-as-54/

Given that I suspect that Leica camera sales represent “a rounding error” in terms of global ICL camera sales, a more relevant statistic would be what proportion of M10 sales were M10-Ds, but even that would IMHO be misleading as they seem to have been impossible to purchase even if there was customer demand...

[John Ricard]

23 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

. I find the M well suited to 'fast' photography, in the sense of assisting and supporting the fast responses of the photographer and catching the action...Other cameras can do the same, of course, but the M loses nothing to them, and in some aspects (a real-time, larger than the image, OVF) is better.

My new M10 Monochrom looses a TON to "other cameras" because it only shoots 10 images before you hit the buffer.  There are many things I photograph that benefit from a larger buffer, and none of them a really action related.  If I'm just shooting 2 people having a conversation I need more than 10 shots to ensure there are more than one image where both faces look "correct" and not awkward from being photographed while they are speaking, for example.  The M9 was almost unusable for these types of shots.  The M240 was an improvement but still did not have a large enough buffer -especially when you compare it to any other digital camera on the market -even those costing under $1,000.  The M10 was perfect, but the M10 Monochrom version was a serious step backward in this department and it was noticeable to me the instant I started using it.  Oh, and I don't know NO ONE talks about the fact that these cameras shoot much slower anytime you raise the ISO. 

So how can you say these cameras lose "nothing" when compared to other cameras?

There's nothing dumber than Leica talking about the "decisive moment" when they make the only cameras I own that won't take a picture exactly when I want to take a picture.

Edited October 24, 2021 by John Ricard

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[michaelbrenner]

2 minutes ago, John Ricard said:

My new M10 Monochrom looses a TON to "other cameras" because it only shoots 10 images before you hit the buffer.  There are many things I photograph that benefit from a larger buffer, and none of them a really action related.  If I'm just shooting 2 people having a conversation I need more than 10 shots to ensure there are more than one image where both faces look "correct" and not awkward from being photographed while they are speaking, for example.  The M9 was almost unusable for these types of shots.  The M240 was an improvement but still did not have a large enough buffer -especially when you compare it to any other digital camera on the market -even those costing under $1,000.  The M10 was perfect, but the M10 Monochrom version was a serious step backward in this department and it was noticeable to me the instant I started using it.  Oh, and I don't know NO ONE talks about the fact that these cameras shoot much slower anytime you raise the ISO. 

So how can you say these cameras lose "nothing" when compared to other cameras?

There's nothing dumber than Leica talking about the "decisive moment" when they make the only cameras I own that won't take a picture exactly when I want to take a picture.

You might be able to get away with a single shot of two people having a conversation without them noticing, but it's difficult to contemplate them (or anyone else nearby) continuing to have conversation with rat-tat-tat of 10+ exposures going off... 8-)