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Leica M11 - your next camera?


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37 minutes ago, elmars said:

If You are right that the M11 has 60 MP: Can we really expect, that there is a huge improvement in high ISO capability? Or can we only expect that it is the same like in the M10R? Which is very good in my opinion (but perhaps not the best).

Resolution has typically very little influence on noise, unless you compare at pixel level.

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Since @bags27  isn't able to post pictures from his dp-Merrills, here are a couple from my Sigma SD-14 with a Foveon-3 sensor to show why I, too, have always liked the Foveon sensors.  The SD-14 has had its Sigma lens mount replaced with a Leica R-mount and I took these two shots with my 60/2.8 Macro-Elmarit-R . Pete. Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden!   Hello guest!

Another unofficial factoid:  The price will be €111,121. 😳

The decisive moment is when the client signs the cheque .

Posted Images

7 hours ago, Edax said:

Note the near instant startup and awakening of Nikon DSLR's with CMOS sensors. So it can be done.

An owl is a bird of prey, so is an eagle. Doesn't mean that both can hunt equally well in a dense forest at night.  Despite many similarities, in the end each has there own specialties and brief. 

Note the size differential between a D850 and an M10.  Vastly increased battery capacity and cooling space, completely different processors and sensors, which despite both being CMOS come from different foundries which undoubtedly means they have completely different sets of parameters, power requirements, read speeds, etc. They might both be cameras but they have completely different design parameters and therefore each can excel in areas where the other can not. 

 

Edited by Tailwagger
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5 minutes ago, Steven said:

You can remove the If at the beginning of your sentence. It is a BSI sensor and I think it’s safe to assume a low light performance at least as good as the A1 and much better then the m10r

BSI does not help the low light performance of FF sensors, whatever marketing is saying. When Nikon introduced BSI in D850, they clearly stated that it does not improve low light performance but allows faster readouts. However, the added dual-conversion gain brought clear benefits at higher ISO. Therefore, M11's sensor could come with a stronger dual-conversion gain than currently available in M10-R.

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1 hour ago, ianman said:

I don't agree.... why would so many user constantly "upgrade" if they were satisfied with their current camera? Then again, I often ask myself why some here bothered to buy an M as they seem to be constantly waiting for the next. Why buy a camera if it does meet your needs?

For the similar reasons around why people lease or trade their car after three years.  They want the incremental improvements the new model offers,  they don't want to deal with the potential for failure or the cost of maintenance and they want to trade the older model while it's still worth something so that the cost differential is manageable. The fact is that if you wind up thinking a new M model offers important improvements, there is no cheaper time to jump then when the camera first arrives.  The 10-R rose nearly 10% in the first year. 

Of course, there's gas as well.  Despite the cost, I found the jump from 240 to 10, 10 to 10-R,  totally worthwhile in each instance. That said, I've grown to dread these major transitions as there winds up being a significant learning curve and period of trial and error involved. The 10-R took several months to fully bond with, the M11 arriving so close on its heals somewhat upsets the normal rhythm of the apple cart.  No doubt yet another new sensor will present some new (and annoying) challenges. 

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Compared to the M10 sensor, the M10-R and M10-M sensors (both derived from the S3) benefitted not only from dual gain architecture (boosting high ISO capabilities), but 10% more photon (light) gathering by creatively separating the electronic components, as well as refined pixel shape, according to Stefan Daniel. He mentioned another improvement, but I’m too lazy to search.  
 

The point is that there’s a lot that goes into all of this, which most of us don’t know about technically, and each generation of sensor (and other components) brings new changes (and potentially fewer trade offs).  Combine that with differing individual needs, preferences, output goals and standards, and we get the usual forum debates.  Choose your tools and be happy (or learn to deal with the shortcomings).  The M11 is already in the oven and about to be served; the next meal is a ways off.  

Jeff

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After reading all of this and been using all digital Ms so far, I do not really understand where we are going now with this M11... why would we need more than 40mpix, and incredible 25K iso performance for 99% of the photographic situations ? It's like everybody is trying to convince him/herself that the ability to print photos taken in the dark, in 2x3 meters is an absolute necessity. Also, why do we really care about stabilization on an M where most of us shoot with a 28 to 50mm ...?

If you want to really improve the use of the M, I would personally be much more interested in things like variable magnification of the viewfinder to be able to shoot very easily with a  24/28, 75 or 90mm... or even different versions of viewfinder magnifications as they already did with a MP 0,58 or 0,85... + display of the only framelines needed once the lens is 6 bit recognized.

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54 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

For the similar reasons around why people lease or trade their car after three years.  They want the incremental improvements the new model offers,  they don't want to deal with the potential for failure or the cost of maintenance and they want to trade the older model while it's still worth something so that the cost differential is manageable. The fact is that if you wind up thinking a new M model offers important improvements, there is no cheaper time to jump then when the camera first arrives.  The 10-R rose nearly 10% in the first year. 

Of course, there's gas as well.  Despite the cost, I found the jump from 240 to 10, 10 to 10-R,  totally worthwhile in each instance. That said, I've grown to dread these major transitions as there winds up being a significant learning curve and period of trial and error involved. The 10-R took several months to fully bond with, the M11 arriving so close on its heals somewhat upsets the normal rhythm of the apple cart.  No doubt yet another new sensor will present some new (and annoying) challenges. 

For me if they finally get rid of the bottom plate, that alone will be a reason to upgrade immediately… I’m sure the rest of the M11 is not going to be “worse” than my M10R…

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

 Combine that with differing individual needs, preferences, output goals and standards, and we get the usual forum debates.  Choose your tools and be happy (or learn to deal with the shortcomings)

It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... 

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34 minutes ago, Steven said:

It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... 

@Steven  You need one of these:  https://sites.google.com/view/black-cat-photo-products/black-cat-extended-range-exposure-guide

Another source:  https://filmphotographystore.com/products/black-cat-exposure-guide-light-meter

Edited by Herr Barnack
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34 minutes ago, Steven said:

It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... 

Priorities.  Either choose another tool, or tools,  (all have compromises) or adjust accordingly.  We’re blessed with capable gear in this day and age, and all of us who lived with film for decades before figured it out… or gave up.

Jeff

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1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

Why, I have a meter in my camera ! and in my phone ! what can this bring more to me ? Asking seriously. 

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3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I just had a horrific thought:  What if the M11 is delivered to U.S. dealers by container ship?? 

At least you are keeping abreast of current events. 👍

However Leica generally uses air cargo to the US for almost everything. Frankfurt to JFK, or possibly Stewart International or Newark these days (saves having to truck through NYC).

A ship-sized container would likely hold a 2-year supply of boxed Ms and lenses - especially during the production ramp-up. ;)

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5 hours ago, Steven said:

Why, I have a meter in my camera ! and in my phone ! what can this bring more to me ? Asking seriously. 

 @Steven    The Black Cat will give you the correct exposure for low light and overly bright scenes that a conventional light meter may not be able to read.  It lists scores of different scenes and assigns a letter of the alphabet for it.  Example:  Neon signs = H; Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O; Moonlit landscape w/full moon = S; Christmas trees, outside at night w/lights = K.

On the front of the Black Cat, there is a circular slide rule type device.  You align the letter for your scene with the ISO you want to use, and you align the triangular part with the aperture you want to use.  The triangular part has a window which then shows the shutter speed you need to use.

Example:  Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O.  Align your chosen ISO (in this case I will use ISO 800) with the letter O.  If you want to use a shutter speed of 1 second (the shutter speed I'm using for this example), the outer ring tells you that f/5.6 is the aperture you want to use for a correct exposure (zone V).  It shows zone IV (-1EV) as needing a 1/2 second exposure.  The exposure scale (the triangular part) gives you the correct shutter speed for everything from zone I (-4EV) to zone IX (+4EV) for bracketing purposes.

I have had a Black Cat since 1997 and it's a good tool to have at hand for scenes that have extremely low or bright lighting and for scenes  that are difficult to meter for such as fireworks displays or outdoor Christmas trees with lights at night.  The Black Cat can also be a lifesaver when shooting film in extreme lighting situations.

Hope this helps...

Edited by Herr Barnack
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Wow I just read the last 2 pages here and I can not believe where this thread is going.. M10R turning to garbage ... the old Sony A7 coming back into the picture

where is this going here ?   The next M should be just a welcome surprise and we will welcome it to our family.  

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31 minutes ago, Artin said:

Wow I just read the last 2 pages here and I can not believe where this thread is going.. M10R turning to garbage ... the old Sony A7 coming back into the picture

where is this going here ?   The next M should be just a welcome surprise and we will welcome it to our family.  

Yeah.
I was just comparing the "garbage" output of M10-R with SL2-S, an excellent camera. Unbelievable how much nicer it is to use a rangefinder than an EVF camera.

Edited by SrMi
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12 hours ago, karrox1 said:

After reading all of this and been using all digital Ms so far, I do not really understand where we are going now with this M11... why would we need more than  ...

Purely consumerist psychology at play and we've marketed to think we need more better tech to gain the advantage or show how "bigger" or "better" are equipment is lol. Most here i believe are gas/gear heads so trying to talk sense is like denying someones nature to tinker or experiment.

All fun and games really ..fun and games peeps!lol

Some lucky few in the future can look back on this thread in retrospect and drink a tall glass of 'i told you so'. Lol

Edited by cboy
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2 hours ago, cboy said:

All fun and games really ..fun and games peeps!lol

Some lucky few in the future can look back on this thread in retrospect and drink a tall glass of 'i told you so'. Lol

My favourites are the ones that keep telling us how great the Sony, and Fuji systems are. I really don’t understand the comparison. I don’t want a gadget full of bells and whistles , I don’t care about auto focus , I have no use for GPS and wifi , I really have no use for 8k Video. 20 page menus. And lenses that are the size of bazookas. And I can not stand lenses that are fly by the wire. But most of all I really get jacked when somebody starts telling us about how great their I phone is as a Camera.  If you don’t want to slow down and enjoy the Art of photography, learn to use the equipment you have, and just want to press a button and take 20 frames a second of your dog running around in the back yard then the M system is not for you. Wildlife and sports photography, the M system is not for you. Paparazzi ? Not for you . You want to slow down , focus , frame , select your aperture shutter speed and walk around with just a few pounds of gear all day long and not come home with a backache.. hey welcome to the M 

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