Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Steven]

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1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

@Steven  You need one of these:  https://sites.google.com/view/black-cat-photo-products/black-cat-extended-range-exposure-guide

Another source:  https://filmphotographystore.com/products/black-cat-exposure-guide-light-meter

Why, I have a meter in my camera ! and in my phone ! what can this bring more to me ? Asking seriously. 

[adan]

3 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

I just had a horrific thought:  What if the M11 is delivered to U.S. dealers by container ship?? 

At least you are keeping abreast of current events. 👍

However Leica generally uses air cargo to the US for almost everything. Frankfurt to JFK, or possibly Stewart International or Newark these days (saves having to truck through NYC).

A ship-sized container would likely hold a 2-year supply of boxed Ms and lenses - especially during the production ramp-up.

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[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

Why, I have a meter in my camera ! and in my phone ! what can this bring more to me ? Asking seriously. 

 @Steven    The Black Cat will give you the correct exposure for low light and overly bright scenes that a conventional light meter may not be able to read.  It lists scores of different scenes and assigns a letter of the alphabet for it.  Example:  Neon signs = H; Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O; Moonlit landscape w/full moon = S; Christmas trees, outside at night w/lights = K.

On the front of the Black Cat, there is a circular slide rule type device.  You align the letter for your scene with the ISO you want to use, and you align the triangular part with the aperture you want to use.  The triangular part has a window which then shows the shutter speed you need to use.

Example:  Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O.  Align your chosen ISO (in this case I will use ISO 800) with the letter O.  If you want to use a shutter speed of 1 second (the shutter speed I'm using for this example), the outer ring tells you that f/5.6 is the aperture you want to use for a correct exposure (zone V).  It shows zone IV (-1EV) as needing a 1/2 second exposure.  The exposure scale (the triangular part) gives you the correct shutter speed for everything from zone I (-4EV) to zone IX (+4EV) for bracketing purposes.

I have had a Black Cat since 1997 and it's a good tool to have at hand for scenes that have extremely low or bright lighting and for scenes  that are difficult to meter for such as fireworks displays or outdoor Christmas trees with lights at night.  The Black Cat can also be a lifesaver when shooting film in extreme lighting situations.

Hope this helps...

Edited October 22, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[SrMi]

31 minutes ago, Artin said:

Wow I just read the last 2 pages here and I can not believe where this thread is going.. M10R turning to garbage ... the old Sony A7 coming back into the picture

where is this going here ?   The next M should be just a welcome surprise and we will welcome it to our family.  

Yeah.
I was just comparing the "garbage" output of M10-R with SL2-S, an excellent camera. Unbelievable how much nicer it is to use a rangefinder than an EVF camera.

Edited October 22, 2021 by SrMi

[cboy]

12 hours ago, karrox1 said:

After reading all of this and been using all digital Ms so far, I do not really understand where we are going now with this M11... why would we need more than  ...

Purely consumerist psychology at play and we've marketed to think we need more better tech to gain the advantage or show how "bigger" or "better" are equipment is lol. Most here i believe are gas/gear heads so trying to talk sense is like denying someones nature to tinker or experiment.

All fun and games really ..fun and games peeps!lol

Some lucky few in the future can look back on this thread in retrospect and drink a tall glass of 'i told you so'. Lol

Edited October 22, 2021 by cboy

[Steven]

8 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

 @Steven    The Black Cat will give you the correct exposure for low light and overly bright scenes that a conventional light meter may not be able to read.  It lists scores of different scenes and assigns a letter of the alphabet for it.  Example:  Neon signs = H; Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O; Moonlit landscape w/full moon = S; Christmas trees, outside at night w/lights = K.

On the front of the Black Cat, there is a circular slide rule type device.  You align the letter for your scene with the ISO you want to use, and you align the triangular part with the aperture you want to use.  The triangular part has a window which then shows the shutter speed you need to use.

Example:  Night Clubs w/dim lighting = O.  Align your chosen ISO (in this case I will use ISO 800) with the letter O.  If you want to use a shutter speed of 1 second (the shutter speed I'm using for this example), the outer ring tells you that f/5.6 is the aperture you want to use for a correct exposure (zone V).  It shows zone IV (-1EV) as needing a 1/2 second exposure.  The exposure scale (the triangular part) gives you the correct shutter speed for everything from zone I (-4EV) to zone IX (+4EV) for bracketing purposes.

I have had a Black Cat since 1997 and it's a good tool to have at hand for scenes that have extremely low or bright lighting and for scenes  that are difficult to meter for such as fireworks displays or outdoor Christmas trees with lights at night.  The Black Cat can also be a lifesaver when shooting film in extreme lighting situations.

Hope this helps...

Thank you so much for this. Just ordered one. 

[derleicaman]

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2 hours ago, Artin said:

My favourites are the ones that keep telling us how great the Sony, and Fuji systems are. I really don’t understand the comparison. I don’t want a gadget full of bells and whistles , I don’t care about auto focus , I have no use for GPS and wifi , I really have no use for 8k Video. 20 page menus. And lenses that are the size of bazookas. And I can not stand lenses that are fly by the wire. But most of all I really get jacked when somebody starts telling us about how great their I phone is as a Camera.  If you don’t want to slow down and enjoy the Art of photography, learn to use the equipment you have, and just want to press a button and take 20 frames a second of your dog running around in the back yard then the M system is not for you. Wildlife and sports photography, the M system is not for you. Paparazzi ? Not for you . You want to slow down , focus , frame , select your aperture shutter speed and walk around with just a few pounds of gear all day long and not come home with a backache.. hey welcome to the M 

Well said! You have distilled the essence of why we love our M cameras. I started with the M over 50 years ago, and I’m still using it.

Of course, I had my dalliances with the R system, Nikon both film and digital, Hasselblad, Sony Alpha and Fuji. The M is the one constant. Horses for courses, of course!

Of course, I can also blame the M for my love of Leica, which has become a life long obsession. First, as a teenage photo geek, Leica counter salesperson at 16, and eventually a Leica dealer with my dad. Became a major Leica collector. Joined the LHSA in my late 20’s. Became the VP and then President. Editor of the Viewfinder since 2000. Worked with Leica on the Special Edition cameras and lenses. And now leading Leica tours to Wetzlar in my spare time. And made scores of wonderful friends! A wonderful obsession!

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

My favourites are the ones that keep telling us how great the Sony, and Fuji systems are. I really don’t understand the comparison. I don’t want a gadget full of bells and whistles , I don’t care about auto focus , I have no use for GPS and wifi , I really have no use for 8k Video. 20 page menus. And lenses that are the size of bazookas. And I can not stand lenses that are fly by the wire. But most of all I really get jacked when somebody starts telling us about how great their I phone is as a Camera.  If you don’t want to slow down and enjoy the Art of photography, learn to use the equipment you have, and just want to press a button and take 20 frames a second of your dog running around in the back yard then the M system is not for you. Wildlife and sports photography, the M system is not for you. Paparazzi ? Not for you . You want to slow down , focus , frame , select your aperture shutter speed and walk around with just a few pounds of gear all day long and not come home with a backache.. hey welcome to the M 

I guess the M was not for Cartier-Bresson either, then. The guy should have slowed down, cut down on the number of shots he took in five minutes - he might have made a better name for himself.😉

Seriously, it's worth watching the videos of him in action and looking at his contact sheets to get a better idea of how other people work at speed with the M.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I guess the M was not for Cartier-Bresson either, then. The guy should have slowed down, cut down on the number of shots he took in five minutes - he might have made a better name for himself.😉

Seriously, it's worth watching the videos of him in action and looking at his contact sheets to get a better idea of how other people work at speed with the M.

Indeed. Digital Ms have become so sluggish that some people believe slowness is part of the Leica ethos nowadays. The same people prefer a 60MP (?) sensor to instant startup times i guess...

 

 

[jdlaing]

3 minutes ago, lct said:

Indeed. Digital Ms have become so sluggish that some people believe slowness is part of the Leica ethos nowadays. The same people prefer a 60MP (?) sensor to instant startup times i guess...

 

 

There is no way on this earth you can be that naïve.

[LocalHero1953]

7 minutes ago, lct said:

Indeed. Digital Ms have become so sluggish that some people believe slowness is part of the Leica ethos nowadays. The same people prefer a 60MP (?) sensor to instant startup times i guess...

 

 

That video doesn't show much action - I've seen others where he is moving faster and shooting more frequently. His contact sheets confirm this.

[charlesphoto99]

Yep, I always shoot at a snail's pace with my M's.... can we lose that old canard already? If anything the M is quicker than any other cameras I've used (just not the start up). 

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[Steven]

1 hour ago, derleicaman said:

Well said! You have distilled the essence of why we love our M cameras. I started with the M over 50 years ago, and I’m still using it.

Of course, I had my dalliances with the R system, Nikon both film and digital, Hasselblad, Sony Alpha and Fuji. The M is the one constant. Horses for courses, of course!

Of course, I can also blame the M for my love of Leica, which has become a life long obsession. First, as a teenage photo geek, Leica counter salesperson at 16, and eventually a Leica dealer with my dad. Became a major Leica collector. Joined the LHSA in my late 20’s. Became the VP and then President. Editor of the Viewfinder since 2000. Worked with Leica on the Special Edition cameras and lenses. And now leading Leica tours to Wetzlar in my spare time. And made scores of wonderful friends! A wonderful obsession!

And I'm sure much more to come ! 

[Guest Nowhereman]

59 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Yep, I always shoot at a snail's pace with my M's.... can we lose that old canard already? If anything the M is quicker than any other cameras I've used (just not the start up)...

Hi Charles - Yes, I'm always amazed by the posts in which some M-users say that their M's are too slow for photographing their "fast as lightening grandchildren", for which they "need" autofocus. Never mind that autofocus can have it's own issue on what it focus on in close-up shots.

My interest is in having a camera that I can shoot one-handed, which I can manage with the M-10 — but the for which the Ricoh GR III/GR IIIx are extremely suitable.
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[Herr Barnack]

4 hours ago, Artin said:

My favourites are the ones that keep telling us how great the Sony, and Fuji systems are. I really don’t understand the comparison. I don’t want a gadget full of bells and whistles , I don’t care about auto focus , I have no use for GPS and wifi , I really have no use for 8k Video. 20 page menus. And lenses that are the size of bazookas. And I can not stand lenses that are fly by the wire. But most of all I really get jacked when somebody starts telling us about how great their I phone is as a Camera.  If you don’t want to slow down and enjoy the Art of photography, learn to use the equipment you have, and just want to press a button and take 20 frames a second of your dog running around in the back yard then the M system is not for you. Wildlife and sports photography, the M system is not for you. Paparazzi ? Not for you . You want to slow down , focus , frame , select your aperture shutter speed and walk around with just a few pounds of gear all day long and not come home with a backache.. hey welcome to the M 

@Artin I couldn't agree more - you nailed it.

Quote

...[Henri Cartier-Bresson] was a Photographer that relied on his skills knowledge and worked hard for his images. Hence my point. 

Bull's eye.

Every photographer I know that has had any level of success has worked to the point of exhaustion for their images - and done it it more times than they can count. There's no way around it, there's no substitute for it.  Obsession, persistence and plain old working your ass off gets results. Anything less gets you less. 

As for those who claim the M10R is turning out "garbage" - that is the most comically childish/ignorant statement I have read in a while.  It made me laugh out loud.  😅

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Guest Nowhereman]

10 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

...As for those who claim the M10R is turning out "garbage" - that is the most comically childish/ignorant statement I have read in a while.  It made me laugh out loud.  😅

You're misrepresenting what @Steven wrote. He already responded on page 110 that he was only referring to lowlight performance — but never mind, this is only the internet.
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[Herr Barnack]

11 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

You're misrepresenting what @Steven wrote. He already responded on page 110 that he was only referring to lowlight performance — but never mind, this is only the internet.
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Less than stellar low light performance is one thing and Steven does make a valid observation about that;  my Q2 has the same issue.  Having ISO 50,000 available doesn't mean much if you need to stay around ISO 6400 or lower to keep noise in check. 

What I was referring to is other posters who run down the M10R that I have read on this website in the past.

Edited October 22, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Less than stellar low light performance is one thing and Steven does make a valid observation about that;  my Q2 has the same issue.  Having ISO 50,000 available doesn't mean much if you need to stay around ISO 5000 to keep noise in check.  What I was referring to is other posters who run down the M10R that I have read on this website in the past.

Note that Q2, similar to SL2, has worse low-light performance (noise in shadows) than M10-R or SL2-S (according to my tests and available measurements).

[erniethemilk]

7 minutes ago, Artin said:

my god have we ever turned into a spoiled bunch , Imagine during film days ISO 400 was already to grainy , If you wanted to sell your images to a stock agency or were by any chance hired by an Ad agency for some commercial work, you had to get the work done by Kodakchrome 64 or Fuji Valvia to get images good enough to keep your foot in the door and make a buck..How the heck did we ever get anything done. 

It’s a great point. I keep telling myself I ‘can’t do’ landscape photography with my M10-P.  I need my Nikon Z, my filter kit for long exposures and my zoom lenses.  

I’ve recently picked up one of Brian Bowers books lined with pages of photographs shot on a variety of film M cameras.  I keep looking at the photographs he’s taken with a couple of different prime lenses and think yeah, course it’s do-able.
 

It’s me that’s the issue not the camera 😂

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[charlesphoto99]

31 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

Hi Charles - Yes, I'm always amazed by the posts in which some M-users say that their M's are too slow for photographing their "fast as lightening grandchildren", for which they "need" autofocus. Never mind that autofocus can have it's own issue on what it focus on in close-up shots.

My interest is in having a camera that I can shoot one-handed, which I can manage with the M-10 — but the for which the Ricoh GR III/GR IIIx are extremely suitable.
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And FTR, I wasn't looking through the viewfinder when I took that. Out of the corner of my eye I saw Mike do a little skip and then I swooped the M9 down to my side and pointed it up for one shot (it's about 75% of the full frame). It just takes years and years and years of practice, and blessed with the ability to be quick. My karate teacher once said, while telling me to slow down during sparring, that I was very quick for my age (57). And I replied, of course, that's what I've been doing for a living my whole life. My philosophy has always been take the picture, release the shutter, no matter what. Don't worry  if your settings aren't perfect or the focus not set, the parallax wrong. That stuff will come with practice, and most exposure mistakes can be fixed to a degree, and can even sometimes add to the character of the image.

I think in general it behooves one to become looser,  which is really the M ethos imo, or at least it always has been to me. Embrace the accidents that can occur solely because of your choice in a camera sans a mirror, and focus on the moments. Embrace the technical limitiations and then break through them with ingenuity vs waiting for the next best thing to do it for you. The M11 will be a fantastic camera no doubt about it, but what you now have in your hand, of any M generation, is far from broken. 

 

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