adan Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2181 Posted October 21, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 3 hours ago, pgk said: This thread, if anything, suggsts a great deal of disatisfaction with current M cameras.....I on the other hand am quite satisfied with my existing M cameras and lenses and have little, if any, desire to upgrade them until they become unreliable or fail. "A great deal" may be an overstatement. Except perhaps for those who don't really want an M at all - just a grossly-overpriced Fuji/Sony with the cachet of a red dot. But as the "Founder's quote" (from Frederick G. Bonfils) at the top of the Denver Post's opinion-page reads, "There is no hope for the satisfied man." 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted October 21, 2021 Posted October 21, 2021 Hi adan, Take a look here Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Steven Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2182 Posted October 21, 2021 3 hours ago, strohscw said: My comment was directed at Steven's statement that the M10-R is garbage. Don't change people's words, that's how wars happen! It's garbage in low light. 1 hour ago, sarav said: mmmh...Well I'm shooting at night with summilux/noctilux lenses and TX-400 with very low technical limitation (pushing 1 or 2 stops). Artistic limitation is another story I don't think M10R is garbage nor is an M9; if you need an M10M for low light photography because you feel limited, then I think you never find an optimal camera. Try force yourself to shoot with "limited" low light performances and surely you'll improve your photograph skill and you'll apreciate more M10 and film-cameras. I found a optimal low light camera. The SL2S is not limiting. But I don't always have permission to take it out with me. The M10R is limiting. Doesn't mean I don't use it and make it work. The MP with film is limiting, doesn't mean I don't use it. Been pushing Vision 3 up to 3 stops lately! But I'm also allowed to be curious about the M10M's low light capabilities, combined with te form factor of the M that I love so much. Just like I am allowed to wish for a better low light capability in the M11. As reminder, and to put things back into context, my complaint about the M10R ISO performance came when someone said that nothing could be improved on the M10R in this department. That's totally wrong. There is a HUGEEEEEE room for improvement. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianman Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2183 Posted October 21, 2021 28 minutes ago, adan said: "A great deal" may be an overstatement I don't agree.... why would so many user constantly "upgrade" if they were satisfied with their current camera? Then again, I often ask myself why some here bothered to buy an M as they seem to be constantly waiting for the next. Why buy a camera if it does meet your needs? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2184 Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) vor 14 Minuten schrieb Steven: Just like I am allowed to wish for a better low light capability in the M11. If You are right that the M11 has 60 MP: Can we really expect, that there is a huge improvement in high ISO capability? Or can we only expect that it is the same like in the M10R? Which is very good in my opinion (but perhaps not the best). Edited October 21, 2021 by elmars Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nwphil Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2185 Posted October 21, 2021 8 hours ago, jaapv said: If it were silly... There is no other effective way to eliminate hot pixels from long exposure without destroying resolution but a dark frame second exposure - ask anybody who has to take images of the night sky, for instance. Any after-exposure software that wipes out hot pixels wipes out stars. Yes, it would be a good idea to be able to turn it off , if only to convince people that it is effective - but you would not like the output in comparison. I am ok with taking dark frames - and the silly part of the noise reduction, should said instead, the limited time for long exposures allowed. In truth, the B mode should not BE limited Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2186 Posted October 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, elmars said: If You are right that the M11 has 60 MP: Can we really expect, that there is a huge improvement in high ISO capability? Or can we only expect that it is the same like in the M10R? Which is very good in my opinion (but perhaps not the best). You can remove the If at the beginning of your sentence. It is a BSI sensor and I think it’s safe to assume a low light performance at least as good as the A1 and much better then the m10r 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2187 Posted October 21, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 40 minutes ago, Steven said: Don't change people's words, that's how wars happen! It's garbage in low light. I found a optimal low light camera. The SL2S is not limiting. But I don't always have permission to take it out with me. The M10R is limiting. Doesn't mean I don't use it and make it work. The MP with film is limiting, doesn't mean I don't use it. Been pushing Vision 3 up to 3 stops lately! But I'm also allowed to be curious about the M10M's low light capabilities, combined with te form factor of the M that I love so much. Just like I am allowed to wish for a better low light capability in the M11. As reminder, and to put things back into context, my complaint about the M10R ISO performance came when someone said that nothing could be improved on the M10R in this department. That's totally wrong. There is a HUGEEEEEE room for improvement. I shot several low-light scenes with SL2-S and M10-R, ISO6400, 1/60 sec at f/2.8. Then, in LrC, I lifted shadows with either exposure (1 to 3 stops) and/or shadows slider. Finally, I resized M10R's files to 24MP and compared them. IMO, SL2-S has a minimal advantage. Only when comparing files at the pixel level is there a noticeable advantage of SL2-S. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2188 Posted October 21, 2021 37 minutes ago, elmars said: If You are right that the M11 has 60 MP: Can we really expect, that there is a huge improvement in high ISO capability? Or can we only expect that it is the same like in the M10R? Which is very good in my opinion (but perhaps not the best). Resolution has typically very little influence on noise, unless you compare at pixel level. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2189 Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Edax said: Note the near instant startup and awakening of Nikon DSLR's with CMOS sensors. So it can be done. An owl is a bird of prey, so is an eagle. Doesn't mean that both can hunt equally well in a dense forest at night. Despite many similarities, in the end each has there own specialties and brief. Note the size differential between a D850 and an M10. Vastly increased battery capacity and cooling space, completely different processors and sensors, which despite both being CMOS come from different foundries which undoubtedly means they have completely different sets of parameters, power requirements, read speeds, etc. They might both be cameras but they have completely different design parameters and therefore each can excel in areas where the other can not. Edited October 21, 2021 by Tailwagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SrMi Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2190 Posted October 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, Steven said: You can remove the If at the beginning of your sentence. It is a BSI sensor and I think it’s safe to assume a low light performance at least as good as the A1 and much better then the m10r BSI does not help the low light performance of FF sensors, whatever marketing is saying. When Nikon introduced BSI in D850, they clearly stated that it does not improve low light performance but allows faster readouts. However, the added dual-conversion gain brought clear benefits at higher ISO. Therefore, M11's sensor could come with a stronger dual-conversion gain than currently available in M10-R. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2191 Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ianman said: I don't agree.... why would so many user constantly "upgrade" if they were satisfied with their current camera? Then again, I often ask myself why some here bothered to buy an M as they seem to be constantly waiting for the next. Why buy a camera if it does meet your needs? For the similar reasons around why people lease or trade their car after three years. They want the incremental improvements the new model offers, they don't want to deal with the potential for failure or the cost of maintenance and they want to trade the older model while it's still worth something so that the cost differential is manageable. The fact is that if you wind up thinking a new M model offers important improvements, there is no cheaper time to jump then when the camera first arrives. The 10-R rose nearly 10% in the first year. Of course, there's gas as well. Despite the cost, I found the jump from 240 to 10, 10 to 10-R, totally worthwhile in each instance. That said, I've grown to dread these major transitions as there winds up being a significant learning curve and period of trial and error involved. The 10-R took several months to fully bond with, the M11 arriving so close on its heals somewhat upsets the normal rhythm of the apple cart. No doubt yet another new sensor will present some new (and annoying) challenges. Edited October 21, 2021 by Tailwagger Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2192 Posted October 21, 2021 Compared to the M10 sensor, the M10-R and M10-M sensors (both derived from the S3) benefitted not only from dual gain architecture (boosting high ISO capabilities), but 10% more photon (light) gathering by creatively separating the electronic components, as well as refined pixel shape, according to Stefan Daniel. He mentioned another improvement, but I’m too lazy to search. The point is that there’s a lot that goes into all of this, which most of us don’t know about technically, and each generation of sensor (and other components) brings new changes (and potentially fewer trade offs). Combine that with differing individual needs, preferences, output goals and standards, and we get the usual forum debates. Choose your tools and be happy (or learn to deal with the shortcomings). The M11 is already in the oven and about to be served; the next meal is a ways off. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
karrox1 Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2193 Posted October 21, 2021 After reading all of this and been using all digital Ms so far, I do not really understand where we are going now with this M11... why would we need more than 40mpix, and incredible 25K iso performance for 99% of the photographic situations ? It's like everybody is trying to convince him/herself that the ability to print photos taken in the dark, in 2x3 meters is an absolute necessity. Also, why do we really care about stabilization on an M where most of us shoot with a 28 to 50mm ...? If you want to really improve the use of the M, I would personally be much more interested in things like variable magnification of the viewfinder to be able to shoot very easily with a 24/28, 75 or 90mm... or even different versions of viewfinder magnifications as they already did with a MP 0,58 or 0,85... + display of the only framelines needed once the lens is 6 bit recognized. 7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yarosuav Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2194 Posted October 21, 2021 54 minutes ago, Tailwagger said: For the similar reasons around why people lease or trade their car after three years. They want the incremental improvements the new model offers, they don't want to deal with the potential for failure or the cost of maintenance and they want to trade the older model while it's still worth something so that the cost differential is manageable. The fact is that if you wind up thinking a new M model offers important improvements, there is no cheaper time to jump then when the camera first arrives. The 10-R rose nearly 10% in the first year. Of course, there's gas as well. Despite the cost, I found the jump from 240 to 10, 10 to 10-R, totally worthwhile in each instance. That said, I've grown to dread these major transitions as there winds up being a significant learning curve and period of trial and error involved. The 10-R took several months to fully bond with, the M11 arriving so close on its heals somewhat upsets the normal rhythm of the apple cart. No doubt yet another new sensor will present some new (and annoying) challenges. For me if they finally get rid of the bottom plate, that alone will be a reason to upgrade immediately… I’m sure the rest of the M11 is not going to be “worse” than my M10R… 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2195 Posted October 21, 2021 I shot several low light photo with my iphone 12 pro max I find them good enough 🙂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2196 Posted October 21, 2021 Yes but were you on the telephone at the time? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2197 Posted October 21, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeff S said: Combine that with differing individual needs, preferences, output goals and standards, and we get the usual forum debates. Choose your tools and be happy (or learn to deal with the shortcomings) It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2198 Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Steven said: It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... @Steven You need one of these: https://sites.google.com/view/black-cat-photo-products/black-cat-extended-range-exposure-guide Another source: https://filmphotographystore.com/products/black-cat-exposure-guide-light-meter Edited October 21, 2021 by Herr Barnack Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2199 Posted October 21, 2021 34 minutes ago, Steven said: It's not always possible. I would love to choose a film M as my unique photo tool. But I can't figure out night time film colour photography. I'm trying really hard to make it work, but I just can't... Priorities. Either choose another tool, or tools, (all have compromises) or adjust accordingly. We’re blessed with capable gear in this day and age, and all of us who lived with film for decades before figured it out… or gave up. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herr Barnack Posted October 21, 2021 Share #2200 Posted October 21, 2021 I just had a horrific thought: What if the M11 is delivered to U.S. dealers by container ship?? If so, Leica will be introducing the M15 in Wetzlar before the M11 hits dealer's shelves in the U.S. 😳 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.