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Leica M11 - your next camera?


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2 hours ago, Artin said:

I am very puzzled with this low light performance desire....

I quite enjoy natural / low light / night shooting in a candid fashion, which almost always involves moving subjects.  With better low light performance, narrower apertures become available with the deeper depth of field, instead of the razor depth of field found in high performance wide aperture lenses.

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Another unofficial factoid:  The price will be €111,121. 😳

The decisive moment is when the client signs the cheque .

This thread clearly illustrates one fact:  There are some out there who will never be satisfied with Leica's newest M camera offering until it has more "features" than the flagship Canon, Nikon and Sony super cameras combined - and then they will wail and moan that it's the size and weight of a Pentax 6x7.  🙄 The Official Leica Chicken is not pleased by this.

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1 minute ago, michaelbrenner said:

I quite enjoy natural / low light / night shooting in a candid fashion, which almost always involves moving subjects.  With better low light performance, narrower apertures become available with the deeper depth of field, instead of the razor depth of field found in high performance wide aperture lenses.

Understood and I can say with my experience at ISO 6400 I have not had to much trouble photographing in most available light indoors at optimum f stops with most lenses.  which in most Leica lenses is at 2.8- to 5.6 

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Available light indoors is one thing - outdoors in the middle of the Colorado Plains at 4 hours after sunset with just a small flashlight reflection, is something different.

The M10 was almost there, pushed to effective ISO 20000 and 1/15 sec., but was seriously struggling with noise, banding and DR. Had to convert to B&W to hide the flaws - and keep the image small. And had there been any movement involved - forget it.

I look forward to ISO 25600-50000 with the quality of the M10's 6400 - in color - at 20x30 size.

Interesting things happen 24 hours a day - an interesting photographer will want to capture them all. ;)

 

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6 hours ago, SrMi said:

M10R has similar low light performance (higher ISO) as latest Nikon and Sony cameras. I do not see much possible improvements there. The main potential for improvement would be to lower the native ISO. The other possibility would be to apply in-camera noise reduction like Canon and Pentax, but I do not think that is a good idea.
 

Sorry to tell you this but in real life, the A7SIII and A1 destroy the M10R in low light. In real life, I said. Not on unreadable charts. The SL2S, however, destroy all three cameras I just cited. So there is a lot of improvement margin. If the M11 can do what the SL2S can do in low light, that would be a huge leap forward. 

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Try taking action shots in poor light indoors.
Play rehearsal Monday night, SL2-S, 90-280SL zoom, ISO 25000, f/4, 1/160. (Deliberately left with no noise reduction).
Yes, I want better low light performance for all my cameras, whether it is a future M11, SL etc. 

 

Edited by LocalHero1953
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I personally think that the M10R is garbage in low light. I can't stand using that camera at night. Of course, if you come from a useless Q2, or an M240, the M10 and M10R will feel like low light monsters, but the reality is that it's far from the minimum standard I expect in 2021. This is the reason why I just bought an M10M, although I don't especially like BW photography. 

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1 hour ago, Steven said:

I personally think that the M10R is garbage in low light. I can't stand using that camera at night. Of course, if you come from a useless Q2, or an M240, the M10 and M10R will feel like low light monsters, but the reality is that it's far from the minimum standard I expect in 2021. This is the reason why I just bought an M10M, although I don't especially like BW photography. 

Topaz DeNoise AI is a lot cheaper than a new camera...

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Topaz DeNoise AI is a lot cheaper than a new camera...

Imagine the Leica M10+TOPAZ would be offered as a M11 with new data. Things must be have better data , otherwise they will not be sold. See Bovenbazen, the earth is free of costs, so should be taken and sold. 

 

 

 

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The number one hill Leica has to conquer with the M11 is wake up time. Still bad on the M10-R, and perhaps even a bit worse than my M9 (which I was shooting while my M10 -R BP was away for focus calibration). Higher ISO is not a make or break for me - for somebody like myself who's come from the days of pushed Tri-X or TMAX 3200, high ISO on most digital cameras these days is like magic...

Edited by charlesphoto99
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3 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The number one hill Leica has to conquer with the M11 is wake up time. 

For me, a quick shutter tap with camera at side has it ready to shoot by the time it reaches my eye.  If I needed anything faster (I don’t), I would turn off sleep mode and carry a spare battery. 

Jeff

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15 hours ago, evikne said:

I've tried a lot, and spent a lot of money on profiles and presets, but still I haven't found anything I am fully satisfied with.

I suspect a portion of the CMOS look is down to the narrower DR. I say this as anecdotally I've noticed that slight underexposures in lower light conditions (typically using the SL2 these days) at higher ISO (3200, 6400) can often yield a look reminiscent of CMOS.  I haven't yet felt the need to experiment to try to pin down exactly how to make this happen intentionally, but I do wonder if under more normal conditions utilizing an ND and higher ISO shooting might not provide the fodder to yield something more satisfying if that's the style one is looking for.

Edited by Tailwagger
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vor 49 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

The number one hill Leica has to conquer with the M11 is wake up time. Still bad on the M10-R, and perhaps even a bit worse than my M9 (which I was shooting while my M10 -R BP was away for focus calibration). Higher ISO is not a make or break for me - for somebody like myself who's come from the days of pushed Tri-X or TMAX 3200, high ISO on most digital cameras these days is like magic...

The M10/M10R are worse than the M9 in regard of wakeup-time. The M9 was ready to shoot directly after turning on, the M10 needs about 1,5 sec. The reason is that the M10 is like a little computer that has to boot.

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7 hours ago, Steven said:

I personally think that the M10R is garbage in low light. I can't stand using that camera at night. Of course, if you come from a useless Q2, or an M240, the M10 and M10R will feel like low light monsters, but the reality is that it's far from the minimum standard I expect in 2021. This is the reason why I just bought an M10M, although I don't especially like BW photography. 

ha ha you are funny. you must be real young to not to remember what it use to be... and what are you shooting that you need 50.000 ISO?

I shoot in auto iso with M10-R and it goes to ISO 4000 all the time, it is very clean.

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53 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

ha ha you are funny. you must be real young to not to remember what it use to be... and what are you shooting that you need 50.000 ISO?

I shoot in auto iso with M10-R and it goes to ISO 4000 all the time, it is very clean.

I may be younger than you, but I shoot a lot of film and I know what a pain can low light be. There's no colour film with a higher sensitivity than 800, so I deal with it. Of course, in comparison to that, being able to see at ISO 4000 on the M10R is fantastic. But it's relative, and I don't know about you, but I'm not ok to settle for mediocre. The digital technology of 2021 should allow you to shoot at 12500 and 25000 without a worry. Most Sony cameras can do it, and even some Leica cameras can do it (better than Sony ever has). So it makes the M10R below (my) expectations. If the M11 doesn't fix that (but I know it will, because I saw it), I would give it the same title that I gave the M10R for the low light department: garbage. 

As to why I need 50.000 ISO, it is mainly for peace of mind, to know that my camera can do anything I'll ask from it. I shoot a lot in very low light, wether indoors or at night, and 90% of the time it's moving subject, for which I would ideally desire a min shutter speed of 1/250th. My Leica SL2S gives that to me (especially with IBIS on, but even without). But my SL2S is too big to bring to diners. 

From what I've read on the forum, the answer to my problem is the M10 Monochrome, which I receive tomorrow. The only challenge I'll have left, is to start liking BW photography, because as of 20.10.2021, I really really really don't like it. I have 1.2 million color photos on my dropbox, and there is not one for which I tell myself: "oh, it would have been better in BW". 

A suivre.... 

Edited by Steven
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3 minutes ago, Steven said:

I have 1.2 million color photos on my dropbox, and there is not one for which I tell myself: "oh, it would have been better in colours". 

 

Assume you meant b/w for last word.  If so, I’m not surprised.  Great b/w photos rarely work well in color, or vice versa. Maybe you should watch your friend Schaller’s brief video (third one I linked) on his 7 tips for b/w, including shooting with intent, but also subject characteristics.  But, if you already don’t like much of the marvelous b/w photo/print examples throughout history, then monochrome (the camera name drops the ending ‘e’) is seemingly not your bag.  A camera won’t change that.

Jeff

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I've never had low light problems.  These were from a performance at the King's Head in London of Trainspotting.  Leica M240.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Assume you meant b/w for last word.

fixed

 

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

 A camera won’t change that.

I disagree. A camera can become a source of inspiration. The (color) M, which I only discovered two years ago, has completely change my way to see the world, and the (way and) things I photograph. 

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