Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Jeff S]

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3 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

The number one hill Leica has to conquer with the M11 is wake up time. 

For me, a quick shutter tap with camera at side has it ready to shoot by the time it reaches my eye.  If I needed anything faster (I don’t), I would turn off sleep mode and carry a spare battery. 

Jeff

[Tailwagger]

15 hours ago, evikne said:

I've tried a lot, and spent a lot of money on profiles and presets, but still I haven't found anything I am fully satisfied with.

I suspect a portion of the CMOS look is down to the narrower DR. I say this as anecdotally I've noticed that slight underexposures in lower light conditions (typically using the SL2 these days) at higher ISO (3200, 6400) can often yield a look reminiscent of CMOS.  I haven't yet felt the need to experiment to try to pin down exactly how to make this happen intentionally, but I do wonder if under more normal conditions utilizing an ND and higher ISO shooting might not provide the fodder to yield something more satisfying if that's the style one is looking for.

Edited October 20, 2021 by Tailwagger

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[elmars]

vor 49 Minuten schrieb charlesphoto99:

The number one hill Leica has to conquer with the M11 is wake up time. Still bad on the M10-R, and perhaps even a bit worse than my M9 (which I was shooting while my M10 -R BP was away for focus calibration). Higher ISO is not a make or break for me - for somebody like myself who's come from the days of pushed Tri-X or TMAX 3200, high ISO on most digital cameras these days is like magic...

The M10/M10R are worse than the M9 in regard of wakeup-time. The M9 was ready to shoot directly after turning on, the M10 needs about 1,5 sec. The reason is that the M10 is like a little computer that has to boot.

[Photoworks]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

I personally think that the M10R is garbage in low light. I can't stand using that camera at night. Of course, if you come from a useless Q2, or an M240, the M10 and M10R will feel like low light monsters, but the reality is that it's far from the minimum standard I expect in 2021. This is the reason why I just bought an M10M, although I don't especially like BW photography. 

ha ha you are funny. you must be real young to not to remember what it use to be... and what are you shooting that you need 50.000 ISO?

I shoot in auto iso with M10-R and it goes to ISO 4000 all the time, it is very clean.

[Steven]

53 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

ha ha you are funny. you must be real young to not to remember what it use to be... and what are you shooting that you need 50.000 ISO?

I shoot in auto iso with M10-R and it goes to ISO 4000 all the time, it is very clean.

I may be younger than you, but I shoot a lot of film and I know what a pain can low light be. There's no colour film with a higher sensitivity than 800, so I deal with it. Of course, in comparison to that, being able to see at ISO 4000 on the M10R is fantastic. But it's relative, and I don't know about you, but I'm not ok to settle for mediocre. The digital technology of 2021 should allow you to shoot at 12500 and 25000 without a worry. Most Sony cameras can do it, and even some Leica cameras can do it (better than Sony ever has). So it makes the M10R below (my) expectations. If the M11 doesn't fix that (but I know it will, because I saw it), I would give it the same title that I gave the M10R for the low light department: garbage. 

As to why I need 50.000 ISO, it is mainly for peace of mind, to know that my camera can do anything I'll ask from it. I shoot a lot in very low light, wether indoors or at night, and 90% of the time it's moving subject, for which I would ideally desire a min shutter speed of 1/250th. My Leica SL2S gives that to me (especially with IBIS on, but even without). But my SL2S is too big to bring to diners. 

From what I've read on the forum, the answer to my problem is the M10 Monochrome, which I receive tomorrow. The only challenge I'll have left, is to start liking BW photography, because as of 20.10.2021, I really really really don't like it. I have 1.2 million color photos on my dropbox, and there is not one for which I tell myself: "oh, it would have been better in BW". 

A suivre.... 

Edited October 20, 2021 by Steven

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

I have 1.2 million color photos on my dropbox, and there is not one for which I tell myself: "oh, it would have been better in colours". 

 

Assume you meant b/w for last word.  If so, I’m not surprised.  Great b/w photos rarely work well in color, or vice versa. Maybe you should watch your friend Schaller’s brief video (third one I linked) on his 7 tips for b/w, including shooting with intent, but also subject characteristics.  But, if you already don’t like much of the marvelous b/w photo/print examples throughout history, then monochrome (the camera name drops the ending ‘e’) is seemingly not your bag.  A camera won’t change that.

Jeff

[chris_tribble]

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I've never had low light problems.  These were from a performance at the King's Head in London of Trainspotting.  Leica M240.

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[Steven]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Assume you meant b/w for last word.

fixed

 

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

 A camera won’t change that.

I disagree. A camera can become a source of inspiration. The (color) M, which I only discovered two years ago, has completely change my way to see the world, and the (way and) things I photograph. 

[mmradman]

10 minutes ago, Steven said:

I may be younger than you, but I shoot a lot of film and I know what a pain can low light be. There's no colour film with a higher sensitivity than 800, so I deal with it. Of course, in comparison to that, being able to see at ISO 4000 on the M10R is fantastic. But it's relative, and I don't know about you, but I'm not ok to settle for mediocre. The digital technology of 2021 should allow you to shoot at 12500 and 25000 without a worry. Most Sony cameras can do it, and even some Leica cameras can do it (better than Sony ever has). So it makes the M10R below (my) expectations. If the M11 doesn't fix that (but I know it will, because I saw it), I would give it the same title that I gave the M10R for the low light department: garbage. 

As to why I need 50.000 ISO, it is mainly for peace of mind, to know that my camera can do anything I'll ask from it. I shoot a lot in very low light, wether indoors or at night, and 90% of the time it's moving subject, for which I would ideally desire a min shutter speed of 1/250th. My Leica SL2S gives that to me (especially with IBIS on, but even without). But my SL2S is too big to bring to diners. 

From what I've read on the forum, the answer to my problem is the M10 Monochrome, which I receive tomorrow. The only challenge I'll have left, is to start liking BW photography, because as of 20.10.2021, I really really really don't like it. I have 1.2 million color photos on my dropbox, and there is not one for which I tell myself: "oh, it would have been better in colours". 

A suivre.... 

Fundamental difference, in my opinion, between digital M cameras and other cameras is that M is about feel of having camera in your hand, expressed through brassing for example, or sand papering in your case,  other models and makes are more about performance.  Reason perhaps why Leica charge more for less.

[charlesphoto99]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

For me, a quick shutter tap with camera at side has it ready to shoot by the time it reaches my eye.  If I needed anything faster (I don’t), I would turn off sleep mode and carry a spare battery. 

Jeff

I prefer a camera that wakes up instantly, as most other brands do. Of course I know how to make the M10/9/8 etc faster in that regards, but it doesn't always work (unless one is constantly 'tapping' their camera or willing to sacrifice battery power). Shots have been lost. Never was the case with my M6/M7 back in the day. 

And as @elmars has said if it's because it's a mini-computer, then Leica needs to come up with a bigger mini-computer! 

[Steven]

1 minute ago, chris_tribble said:

 

I've never had low light problems.  These were from a performance at the King's Head in London of Trainspotting.  Leica M240.

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second one is a little blurry, and in general they are rather on the underexposed side. They work very well, but your artistic decisions didn't make you push the ISO too much I suppose. 

Also, let me clarify one thing. Just like I said I didn't like the 35 FLE doesn't mean I can't get good photos with it. I just don't like the process. Same with M10R and low light. I'll always be able to tell my story with it at night. I just don't enjoy it. It's not good enough. 

[mmradman]

2 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I prefer a camera that wakes up instantly, as most other brands do. Of course I know how to make the M10/9/8 etc faster in that regards, but it doesn't always work (unless one is constantly 'tapping' their camera or willing to sacrifice battery power). Shots have been lost. Never was the case with my M6/M7 back in the day. 

And as @elmars has said if it's because it's a mini-computer, then Leica needs to come up with a bigger mini-computer! 

So if M10 is mini computer what was M9, an abacus?

[chris_tribble]

Just now, Steven said:

They work very well, but your artistic decisions didn't make you push the ISO too much I suppose. 

Thanks for the kind comment. Correct re pushing the ISO. The reality of so much of my work is that I've rarely felt a need for more than 6400.  1600 Fuji slide film used to feel like luxury!

 

 

[Jeff S]

Just now, Steven said:

I disagree. A camera can become a source of inspiration. The (color) M, which I only discovered two years ago, has completely change my way to see the world, and the (way and) things I photograph. 

Be ready to adopt a disciplined shooting AND editing workflow.  More than color, there are myriad possible rendering styles, which depend on specific processing techniques, just as in darkroom days.  The Monochrom is a very flexible instrument, which doesn’t dictate a singular approach or look.  I’ve already written extensively how it helps me to see and think. But the resulting style is mine. If you can develop your own personal style that appeals, then it will have served you well.  But my point was that most every conceivable b/w style is already there to see, given the long and rich history of the genre.  If NONE of it appeals to you, your challenge to create something new will be immense.

Jeff

[FrozenInTime]

8 minutes ago, mmradman said:

So if M10 is mini computer what was M9, an abacus?

M9 certainly sounds like it's driven by clockwork 🙂

[Tailwagger]

10 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

I prefer a camera that wakes up instantly.... Shots have been lost. Never was the case with my M6/M7 back in the day. 

So, and not to be argumentative, but how many shots per battery are you willing to sacrifice for this? Nothing comes for free. Personally, I find the M battery capacity on the edge of abysmal in that regard and it only gets worse with age and increasingly complicated firmware. At $175 a pop, I'm happy to press to wake up and keep whatever extra frames I can.  It should also be mentioned that while shots might not have been lost to wakeup times back in the day, they certainly, among other reasons, were when spending time shoving in a new can every 24 or 36 frames.  At least with a battery it's every couple of hundred. 

[Jeff S]

25 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Never was the case with my M6/M7 back in the day. 

 

Not unless the film advance was completed in time.  Or loading a new roll. One often needs to adapt to the circumstances and limitations.

Jeff

Edited October 20, 2021 by Jeff S

[charlesphoto99]

6 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

So, and not to be argumentative, but how many shots per battery are you willing to sacrifice for this? Nothing comes for free. Personally, I find the M battery capacity on the edge of abysmal in that regard and it only gets worse with age and increasingly complicated firmware. At $175 a pop, I'm happy to press to wake up and keep whatever extra frames I can.  It should also be mentioned that while shots might not have been lost to wakeup times back in the day, they certainly, among other reasons, were when spending time shoving in a new can every 24 or 36 frames.  At least with a battery it's every couple of hundred. 

Reason it out all you want, but the start up times from sleep or off have been the Achilles heal of the M8/9/240/10. 

 

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

Not unless the film advance was completed in time.  One often needs to adapt to the circumstances and limitations.

Jeff

I've been shooting M's for over twenty five years now - as a pro. I know what I'm doing. So of course I know about the vagaries of film vs digital shooting. Thing is, as long as my (no longer owned) 6/7 was wound on, and turned on, I could pick it up and take a picture immediately. Not the case with the digital M's if they've gone to sleep. Never a problem with the Nikon's I've owned. 

[pgk]

7 hours ago, mmradman said:

Interestingly most low light pictures/high ISO appear to be presented in Mono, this is where Mono camera, for a reason, reign supreme.

Well, that's how we tend to see in very low light conditions. (Ignoring brighter lit, coloured areas). So it makes good sense to me.

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[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto99 said:

 Not the case with the digital M's if they've gone to sleep. 

Then don’t let it go to sleep and carry a battery.  Easier than carrying multiple rolls of film.  Your desire for a quicker machine makes sense, but there is an easy workaround in the meantime.

Jeff