Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Jon Warwick]

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3 hours ago, JimmyCheng said:

"film look" or a more organic look is usually related to imperfections introduced by the lenses of the old era. Going APO will be inevitably lead you further away from achieving that look. Maybe try to put some film simulation preset in the post with added de-sharpening, I found it quite helpful. Also, I find I can achieve the result better with the Fujifilm GFX or Hasselblad X1D medium format sensor due to the greater latitude of adjustment you can do with colors and such.

Thanks, and yes, as a GFX100S user, I’ve found it’s much easier than (say) either the SL2 or M240 that I previously owned to achieve the smoother and more organic look that I want. The Fuji Camera RAW profiles are also exceptional in that regard too, IMHO.

Still, I do like the M size and form factor (especially for travel), and like the premium feel of Leica cameras, so looking for possible ways to smooth out the look as much as possible if I one day pick up a digital M for travel use. Certainly I’ve learnt the APOs I had didn’t get me there, so exploring if other lenses might.

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

Hence why I’m curious, in the 50mm bracket, which lenses “with character” that you especially like when paired with a digital sensor, and if you find they help provide a more gentle look on digital?

Some recurring choices in these threads…

 

 

Jeff

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[Steven]

4 hours ago, Jon Warwick said:

Very interesting. When i had my M240 and M 50 Summicron v5, I kept wishing the output looked more “film-like”. I went down a rabbit hole of getting the M 50 APO, hoping its microcontrast would add more depth to the images, but for my eyes I merely got a look (ie, very high acuity, and higher macro contrast) that was even further from my target of something more gentle and film-like! 😳

Hence why I’m curious, in the 50mm bracket, which lenses “with character” that you especially like when paired with a digital sensor, and if you find they help provide a more gentle look on digital?

Easy. Summilux 50 Pre asph V3. Known as the 50E46 

[Steven]

4 hours ago, JimmyCheng said:

"film look" or a more organic look is usually related to imperfections introduced by the lenses of the old era. Going APO will be inevitably lead you further away from achieving that look. Maybe try to put some film simulation preset in the post with added de-sharpening, I found it quite helpful. Also, I find I can achieve the result better with the Fujifilm GFX or Hasselblad X1D medium format sensor due to the greater latitude of adjustment you can do with colors and such.

Not necessarily. An 35 APO on an M10M will give you that Mamiya 7 look on T-Max or trix. 

[frame-it]

46 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

Thanks, and yes, as a GFX100S user, I’ve found it’s much easier than (say) either the SL2 or M240 that I previously owned to achieve the smoother and more organic look that I want. The Fuji Camera RAW profiles are also exceptional in that regard too, IMHO.

looking for possible ways to smooth out the look as much as possible if I one day pick up a digital M for travel use. Certainly I’ve learnt the APOs I had didn’t get me there, so exploring if other lenses might.

 

 

 

try helios/Jupiter/tair etc  lenses on the GFX..they work really well and have very unique organic renditions

[bags27]

5 hours ago, JimmyCheng said:

ah, indeed. We shall not go down that rabbit hole though. That's why I shoot both 35mm in film/digital and 120mm in film/digital. Each has its own charm (sometimes I might even find the mamiya7 shot too be a touch too digital because of the perceived sharpness, which should be a good thing)

When I took up mainly the Mamiya 7, a friend observed that there seemed to be little difference between my "cleanest" photos and digital ones. I keep looking at Hassy and Rollei photos, convinced that the Zeiss (sometimes Rollei) lenses have a bit more "character." And of course, we obsess on film stock + developer,  sometimes wanting the cleanest and sharpest images, sometimes the opposite. (I have 3 Holga cameras!) All fun.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by bags27

[adan]

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49 minutes ago, bags27 said:

When I took up mainly the Mamiya 7, a friend observed that there seemed to be little difference between my "cleanest" photos and digital ones. I keep looking at Hassy and Rollei photos, convinced that the Zeiss (sometimes Rollei) lenses have a bit more "character." And of course, we obsess on film stock + developer,  sometimes wanting the cleanest and sharpest images, sometimes the opposite. (I have 3 Holga cameras!) All fun.

Thread drift here - but I agree. It took me a while to get used to the extra contrast, but also clarity, of the Mamiya rangefinder lenses (I use a Mam6), coming from pre-1980 Rollei/Hassy/Zeiss lenses. It remains an ongoing process to tame their "digital character" with film, developer and exposure selection (I now use FP4+ when the light allows, and plain ol' D-76).

And as any precisionist will point out - if you scan film, you are really dealing with a "digital photograph of a piece of film" in any event.

[eyeheartny]

On 10/17/2021 at 6:02 AM, Jon Warwick said:

so looking for possible ways to smooth out the look as much as possible if I one day pick up a digital M for travel use. Certainly I’ve learnt the APOs I had didn’t get me there, so exploring if other lenses might.

 

On 10/17/2021 at 1:45 AM, Jon Warwick said:

Very interesting. When i had my M240 and M 50 Summicron v5, I kept wishing the output looked more “film-like”. I went down a rabbit hole of getting the M 50 APO, hoping its microcontrast would add more depth to the images, but for my eyes I merely got a look (ie, very high acuity, and higher macro contrast) that was even further from my target of something more gentle and film-like! 😳

Hence why I’m curious, in the 50mm bracket, which lenses “with character” that you especially like when paired with a digital sensor, and if you find they help provide a more gentle look on digital?

 

Try using a diffusion filter. The Tiffen Black Pro Mist, or the Moment Cinebloom, all can add a softer, smoother look to your images. The Cinebloom offer a more veiled look across the frame resulting from a decrease in contrast overall, whereas the Tiffen mostly blooms/softens around highlights while keeping overall contrast up. If you use a 1/2 strength Tiffen or 20% Cinebloom and shoot with nice light you will notice a more vintage, film-like look from your lenses. The Cinebloom will be a more noticeable look. There are also post-processing strategies to offer a more film-like look, but starting with a diffusion filter when the image is captured is an excellent beginning point to achieving this softer, gentler look. These filters are exceedingly popular for a reason! 

Edited October 18, 2021 by eyeheartny

[michaelbrenner]

1 minute ago, eyeheartny said:

Tiffen Black Pro Mist

Is it possible to get a similar effect in Photoshop?

[eyeheartny]

1 minute ago, michaelbrenner said:

Is it possible to get a similar effect in Photoshop?

Nowhere near as good by any stretch of the imagination. There is real merit to capturing the initial RAW file as close as possible to the way you want. There is something about the more organic halation effects that these filters provide that is extremely difficult to make look natural in PS. Even with a skilled retoucher, the combo of the smoothness of the halation with the slightly unpredictable nature of which highlights bloom in which particular way makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible to do without a ton of post processing work. There is something wonderful about popping one of these filters on and seeing how they react to different light and circumstances. I absolutely love both my Tiffen BPM and Moment filters for this reason. They work perfectly in taking the harsh digital edge off of images. 

[michaelbrenner]

1 hour ago, eyeheartny said:

Nowhere near as good by any stretch of the imagination. There is real merit to capturing the initial RAW file as close as possible to the way you want. There is something about the more organic halation effects that these filters provide that is extremely difficult to make look natural in PS. Even with a skilled retoucher, the combo of the smoothness of the halation with the slightly unpredictable nature of which highlights bloom in which particular way makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible to do without a ton of post processing work. There is something wonderful about popping one of these filters on and seeing how they react to different light and circumstances. I absolutely love both my Tiffen BPM and Moment filters for this reason. They work perfectly in taking the harsh digital edge off of images. 

Really appreciate the insight.  Will have to try one out.

[Steven]

7 hours ago, eyeheartny said:

Nowhere near as good by any stretch of the imagination. There is real merit to capturing the initial RAW file as close as possible to the way you want. There is something about the more organic halation effects that these filters provide that is extremely difficult to make look natural in PS. Even with a skilled retoucher, the combo of the smoothness of the halation with the slightly unpredictable nature of which highlights bloom in which particular way makes it incredibly difficult if not impossible to do without a ton of post processing work. There is something wonderful about popping one of these filters on and seeing how they react to different light and circumstances. I absolutely love both my Tiffen BPM and Moment filters for this reason. They work perfectly in taking the harsh digital edge off of images. 

I used to use BPM filters a lot on Sony and canon, but since I switched fully to Leica, I don’t use them anymore because a annoying phenomenon happens. At night (when they are the most relevant), light sources creates little colorful dots of reflection that ruin the image. I understand why this happens. What I don’t understand is why it didn’t happen on Sony 🤨🤨

[MikeMyers]

I'm confused, but that's nothing new.  Over my lifetime the world always seemed to want sharper, more clear images, that could make huge prints that looked awesome.  Leica now makes some of the best, if not the very best.  But I read here where it seems like many of you want to go back to what Leica used to make, before they improved the lenses to where they are today?

Are you guys getting the more powerful current Leica lenses, but preferring to use older Leica lenses that were designed for shooting on film?

How much of a difference is there?

Could one of you please post a small, cropped image, suitable for uploading to this forum, that shows the difference between "old" and "new"?

......and along with it, explain why you prefer one or the other?

With the huge sensor on the M11, the difference is likely to be even more obvious at full resolution.

[bags27]

24 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I'm confused, but that's nothing new.  Over my lifetime the world always seemed to want sharper, more clear images, that could make huge prints that looked awesome.  Leica now makes some of the best, if not the very best.  But I read here where it seems like many of you want to go back to what Leica used to make, before they improved the lenses to where they are today?

Are you guys getting the more powerful current Leica lenses, but preferring to use older Leica lenses that were designed for shooting on film?

How much of a difference is there?

Could one of you please post a small, cropped image, suitable for uploading to this forum, that shows the difference between "old" and "new"?

......and along with it, explain why you prefer one or the other?

With the huge sensor on the M11, the difference is likely to be even more obvious at full resolution.

I'll leave it to others to post photos. They're pretty simple to find when comparing what's at the thread linked below (note that it's up to over 400 pages, so a lot of people like old glass) with the same camera body of your favorite digital Leica on its own thread. But just to say that film (not necessarily the same as old glass, but certainly in roughly the same "aesthetic field") is making a tremendous comeback as are film cameras, whose prices have skyrocketed on ebay. Think records. Lots of audiophiles are going back to vacuum tubes and records and ditching what they feel is the synthetic sound of digitized music, no matter how convenient and how great its dynamic range.

I don't agree that a larger sensor will necessarily increase the distinction. After all, the digital Hassy is some 50 mps and has a more filmic rendering (to my eye, at least) and certainly (to my eye) the MF Leica S is more "filmic" than the SL2. When I say "filmic," I mean the rendering seems gentler, the main subject has less dramatic (artificial) pop and the fall off to background is more integrative and far closer to what my eye, at least, sees psychologically; that the colors seem less assaultive and more "natural" to me. Even flaws--what we like to call "character"--has its attractions, because I don't see the world perfectly. My eyes have flaws, my brain interprets the world subjectively, so what pleases me is mimesis: the resemblance (verisimilitude) to how I emotionally connect to the world. I keep saying "to me," but it's highly subjective and I guess I'm all that counts when my name is on the credit card.😀

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by bags27

[IkarusJohn]

Benefits of a larger sensor …

[Al Brown]

12 hours ago, eyeheartny said:

Try using a diffusion filter. The Tiffen Black Pro Mist, or the Moment Cinebloom, all can add a softer, smoother look to your images.

On my M10-R very frequently: Tiffen pro mist 1/4, black pro mist 1/8 and my favorite filter for humans - the Glimmerglass 1.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Al Brown

[lct]

5 hours ago, MikeMyers said:

Could one of you please post a small, cropped image, suitable for uploading to this forum, that shows the difference between "old" and "new"?

Most pics at full aperture will show that. 

[jaapv]

12 minutes ago, lct said:

Most pics at full aperture will show that. 

There are "old lenses" threads in the forum.

[evikne]

Personally, I prefer lenses that are just old enough to scrape off the top layer of digital harshness, but not so old that they have obvious flaws. But even more important is the size and weight. To me, M lenses preferably should be small, light – and fast! An almost impossible combination with newer lenses. I am really looking forward to the next generation M lenses, which are promised to be smaller.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Al Brown]

Back to the topic of the coming M11.

Peter Karbe stated in February 2020: "The M has evolved during the years, but always with the aim that the camera does not differ significantly from the original M3… we have adapted the digitalisation (of M cameras) to the M-System rather than the other way around."

I wonder if this philosophy will be honored with M11. I guess it *should* stay true to the M "Gestalt" with various deviations... Remember M5 😊?