Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[Herr Barnack]

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17 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

You mean mm surely? Or 0.5cm maybe?

but 5cm, no way!

You are correct, 5 mm - fixed above.

5 cm. more would be an extra two inches; that would make an M240 about the size/weight of a standard red brick. 😳

But then again...  If Leica had let a couple of M240's slip out that were 5 cm. thicker, they would be worth billions at auction!

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[LeonS]

Bsi or any good low light sensor would be really nice.

ibis to make it even more low light friendly.

shorter range finder coupling for my very serious food photography (aka take random food pic at dinner without standing out and look all weird)

global shutter but I doubt it would be in M11. Only Sony sensor seems to have it and I don’t know leica would be up to switch supplier

Keep the size as M10. 

at least 24mp but it doesnt need to be excessive. 

No other new feature really matters to me. 

Really I just want an m10 with less of existing limitation. 

 

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[SJH]

On 4/14/2021 at 6:54 PM, Jeff S said:

For the newcomers here, this is the same routine with every new or rumored release.  First, a wish list (search related M11 discussions). Then rumors.  Then release (or not if false rumor * ). Then complaints. Then praises. Until the next cycle. Some users of existing model firmly state up front that they are content, and even opposed to a new iteration... these folks often become the new model’s best advocates (usually after Jono’s review).

* Leica Rumors, the source here, had a good track record for years after the M9 release, but have been wildly inaccurate in several instances since, including the ‘M/CL’ debacle,  the missed timing on the SL2 (twice in the course of a year), etc.  They are in the business of attracting new viewers, not necessarily being accurate.

Jeff

 

I agree with you Jeff on this on the basis that we have one limited information rumour of an M11 and off we go, let’s face it an M11 will obviously come at some point over the next couple of years so it’s pretty easy to roughly put a ‘spec’ together as a tenuous rumour, as an individual, to pass on to anyone who will listen. We’ve already seen speculation of an SL 24-70 2.8 and then another of a 28-70 2.8 for realise this month so it will be interesting to see if this materialises and if so in what form for example.

The CL2 rumours and associated spec have been talked about for some time for a release date of this April along with 21 & 24mm SL lenses in 2021, at the moment it doesn’t seem like any of this will happen when the rumour dates had them scheduled for. For example CL2 late 2021 at best now with perhaps IBIS, IP52 and 36mb, things seem a little mixed up in the rumours world at the moment. The rumour mill on the CL2 again seems to have gone very quiet given all the activity in 2020 around it coming in April 2021.

Let’s face it if the M11 launch date is November then pre-production models are already out there being tested 7 months out and the spec will be pretty much locked in. I’d be happy to proved wrong but with the fairly recent launch of the M10R, SL2-S, new SL2/S firmware meant to be coming this spring, 28mm SL APO, 35mm M APO etc having just been launched I’m not quite sure they have the resources to also get the CL2 (surely a bigger priority right now) and M11 out in 2021? Also why have the M10R launch only 16 months before an M11, why not just leave it as an M10P and go straight to an M11 this spring instead. If both a M11 and CL2 are coming for autumn 2021 then they’ll both be in the hands of testers now so things start to get a bit congested - Jono only has so much time

Personally I think the M11 will come in early summer 2022 at the earliest but if it does arrive in November well I’m more than happy to be proved wrong but I suspect if it did arrive then there will be many unhappy M10R owners out there and if many other substantiated rumours arrive over the next couple of months from different sources, around a similar spec, then it will perhaps make for a long 2021 for Leica in terms of M10R or M10 sales over that time. However, we only have to look at rumours that Jeff mentions and the CL2 for example to see that nearly always they are far to early or wrong completely!!

Also with the M10R & M10M meant to be selling very well aren’t really your priorities SL firmware updates for this spring, launching more SL lenses, getting the CL2 out, new M lenses like the 35mm APO etc? For most of these you’re under far more commercial pressure and competition than you are against the current M camera line up.

[lct]

27 minutes ago, SJH said:

Also why have the M10R launch only 16 months before an M11, why not just leave it as an M10P and go straight to an M11 this spring instead. [...] if it does arrive in November [...] there will be many unhappy M10R owners out there [...]

I have no clue but an explanation could be that there will be an M11-R later on. This way M10-R owners would have more pixels than M11's who would have less pixels than M11-R's. And all those people would have the new Visoflex. Happiness for everybody .

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by lct

[cboy]

15 hours ago, lct said:

Didn't look that silly 15 years ago (Epson R-D1). Smart, astute, curious perhaps but silly i don't think so. We used the lever to cock the shutter though. Now current digital Ms are slippery as soap bars w/o grip or thumb rest so any help is welcome to improve their ergonomics IMHO.

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Form follows function. The lever worked then as it cocked the shutter; a faux lever removes that form follows function aesthetic of the M imho. But having innovative ergonomics is always welcome as you say.

The digital implementation of the analog elements of the rd-1 was quite unique. Id rather have a updated rd than M...

[jankap]

11 hours ago, LeonS said:

1. ibis to make it even more low light friendly.

2. shorter range finder coupling for my very serious food photography (aka take random food pic at dinner without standing out and look all weird)

3. global shutter but I doubt it would be in M11. Only Sony sensor seems to have it and I don’t know leica would be up to switch supplier

4. Keep the size as M10. 

1. and 4. exclude each other.

2. with lcd or evf only (see new M-lens) The mechanics inside the camera are limited.

3. silent shutter with M?

Edited April 17, 2021 by jankap

[lct]

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4 hours ago, cboy said:

Form follows function. The lever worked then as it cocked the shutter; a faux lever removes that form follows function aesthetic of the M imho. But having innovative ergonomics is always welcome as you say.

The function would be to replace a thumb rest i guess. Try to use one and a flash altogether. Only the "Thumbie" allows for that AFAIK and not everybody likes sticking accessories or rely on them. Now i don't hold my breath. The real Leica man never uses a flash .

[lct]

1 hour ago, jankap said:

3. silent shutter with M?

Why not if i may ask? Curiously enough my Ms are now my more noisy cameras.

[cp995]

Am 15.4.2021 um 03:04 schrieb cboy:

It feels the M system is lagging behind with tech that most of the competition already has....

Which "competion" do you mean?
I don't know any other System with a Rangefinder

Leica M = "Das Wesentliche" but you will find all this other tec-stuff in the SL Line

Edited April 17, 2021 by cp995

[SrMi]

25 minutes ago, lct said:

Why not if i may ask? Curiously enough my Ms are now my more noisy cameras.

silent shutter = electronic shutter?

[strohscw]

Ok, here is my dream M11 to partner the M10M:
1.) Housing and basic equipment like M10-P
2.) BSI sensor with 36 MPx and maximum dynamic range
3.) Rangefinder must stay, it is the DNA of the M camera. 
4.) Significantly improved separate EVF with compatibility to the M10M. If they need more space in the camera body for this, then some space could be created by an implied grip on the M11.
5.) Significantly shortened start up time and larger buffer.
6.) Battery of the M10.

Edited April 17, 2021 by strohscw

[delta100]

I bet it will be unavailable in the UK for a long time just like all the lenses due to Brexit wars!

[lct]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

silent shutter = electronic shutter?

Could work like your Q2 i guess. Q2's Silent Shutter

[jankap]

1 hour ago, lct said:

Why not if i may ask? Curiously enough my Ms are now my more noisy cameras.

OK, nothing against low noise. But then only with global shutter technology. I remember a picture under fluorescent light with the Ricoh M-mount.

[lct]

1 minute ago, jankap said:

OK, nothing against low noise. But then only with global shutter technology. I remember a picture under fluorescent light with the Ricoh M-mount.

Not sure about global technology but silent shutter is easy to disable anyway. I have a user profile on my CL and other cameras for that. 

[jankap]

 

12 minutes ago, lct said:

Not sure about global technology but silent shutter is easy to disable anyway. I have a user profile on my CL and other cameras for that. 

To be honest, I have an eye on the Sigma fp ...... Without any mechanical shutter. GAS, you know.

Edited April 17, 2021 by jankap

[-ph-]

It would be lovely, if the new M11 had IBIS. In low light, a difficult to beat feature. Not sure I am going to buy another camera without IBIS. But for space limitations and the fact that you don't want to move the sensor relative to your optical viewfinder, I am a bit sceptical about the probability of IBIS. 

A silent electronic shutter option would also be highly appreciated, I don't understand why it was not offered with the M10 already.

The body should be the same size as the M10, wouldn't mind if it were slightly lighter. Charging via USB-C is a very convenient feature.

For the viewfinder, digital frame lines would be a great improvement. Only one set of frame lines for the actual focal length, and always a proper frame (configurable to taste). They also could support any focal length. A great bonus for 40mm lenses and any other lens not represented by the current frame lines. Replacing the metal mask with an OLED screen would give a lot of options. Of course, once having a display overlay replacing the frame lines, one could get completely crazy. Like showing focus peaking inside the viewfinder and other data, if required (a grid, frame lines for other focal lengths, a digital level). The frame line selector lever could be replaced by That all would be optional and configurable, the benefits of a programmable device

Beyond that I would appreciate any improvement of the viewfinder optics, as I wear glasses, I have problems seeing the 28mm frame lines.

Improving the Visoflex would be another obvious and welcome enhancement. Considering it is optional, it could be a bit larger, preferrably a bit more robust (mine constantly swings up by itself) and should be as close to the SL viewfinder as possible.

Quite a list, but that would be the improvements which could make me buy the M11 - otherwise I am still be very happy with my quite excellent M10, so I am not in a big hurry to buy another expensive camera :).

[Alberti]

1 hour ago, strohscw said:

Ok, here is my dream M11 to partner the M10M:
1.) Housing and basic equipment like M10-P
2.) BSI sensor with 36 MPx and maximum dynamic range
3.) Rangefinder must stay, it is the DNA of the M camera. 
4.) Significantly improved separate EVF with compatibility to the M10M. If they need more space in the camera body for this, then some space could be created by an implied grip on the M11.
5.) Significantly shortened start up time and larger buffer.
6.) Battery of the M10.

7) viewfinder with ample support for those wearing glasses. The M10 is a major improvement over M240.

😎 Better is the option to to have the sight of M3 or M2 - option like alacarte

-8) coaxial EVF is impossible, why not TWO distinct holes to look in? The oldest LTM camera’s by Barnack had that ..

[just thinking inside the box]

9) I liked the “frame distance” of the original M8. Why not: “An upgrade program that allows the framelines to be changed for ones which are calibrated at around 1 m not 2m shooting distance” - Note I am not sure abouth the 1m but I am sure about the problem that the current fashion of narrow framelines give. The test: will a 40mm be narrow on the 35mm lines? Then it is good (and allows more fun with the standard 35/50mm usage); fun, that is ease of use. Once the lax frameline was needed for slides; but they were oh so handsome.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Alberti

[jankap]

Interesting that nobody asks for upgrade technology.  A feature of Leitz long ago.

My father bought an If. The camera was upgraded to a IIf. I got it for my exam. After a few years the shutter jammed. We decided to upgrade it to a IIIf together with the repair of the shutter. Sometimes I still use the camera, 60 years later without even a CLA.

A If can take pictures (times 25 to 1000), one has to use an optical viewfinder, but a flash socket is available. The IIf adds the rangefinder mechanism (with eye adjustment) and the viewfinder. With the IIIf the long times (and T) and the self timer are added.

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[Herr Barnack]

Silent shutter like the Q2 - or at minimum a quiet shutter like the M10 Monochrom - is also a must have on the M11.