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Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}


Al Brown

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What happend (my version): The embargo date for the Leica M11 was today 3pm (German time) Steven started yesterday at 5pm (German time) posting Leica M11 images I deleted (hid) the thread, contacted Steve and asked him not to do so as such leaks can hurt the relationship to Leica Camera – the forum’s and my business’ relationship.  Steven answered this: Three hours later he started another thread: „M11 - My first impressions of the best digital M yet“ Using

LUF Admin

No I don't. Lengthy justification hidden, account banned again, premium membership fee refunded. You can write a thousand times that your post was not an attack in my direction. I told you that you are on probation and it's a really, really bad idea to post off topic justifications and to open the discussion again. Sorry, I'm now really mad now. It's Friday evening, I had a hard week and still a long to-do list. And I'm no longer willing to tidy up behind single members who d

Steven

I buy a lot of stuff, but I never look back, or never change my mind once my opinion is made.  No, you remember it wrong. I said I didn't like it on digital, and I still don't. I always said that I liked it on film, and I still do.    Dude, what are you smoking ? I'm so happy. Happy in my life. Happy with my cameras. I'm the happiest person you've spoken to today! And I am extremely focused on my photography. In December, I shot 173 rolls of film, in four different countries.

Posted Images

Quite a few leica m users prefer older lenses or spherical lenses and some hark back to the lovely M9 or prefer 24 mp with cameras which creates a problem for leica with new high megapixel cameras and technically outstanding APO lenses.

But jomo slack clearly explains that the new 35mm apo for example is in no way cold and brutally clinical but is actually a lovely lens with all the magic of those older lenses but with performance to match = please buy one.

The poster "steven" tells us that the M 11 will be a wonderful high MP sensor but with a cleverly added beauty that in all the good ways might just resemble the M9 sensor or maybe just an amazing beauty of its own that is in no way just another high MP sensor.

A cynical person might conclude this is just a sales pitch to tempt the many people who actually prefer the older look.

I mean leica ,voigtlander and the chinese companies are all well aware of this and produce lenses that are deliberately flawed or older designs.

Steven and jomo are good posters on here and jomo backs his reviews up with beautiful photographs but they both have a clear bias and relationship with leica which surely has to be considered when reading/viewing their input in leica land?

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10 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

Quite a few leica m users prefer older lenses or spherical lenses and some hark back to the lovely M9 or prefer 24 mp with cameras which creates a problem for leica with new high megapixel cameras and technically outstanding APO lenses.

But jomo slack clearly explains that the new 35mm apo for example is in no way cold and brutally clinical but is actually a lovely lens with all the magic of those older lenses but with performance to match = please buy one.

The poster "steven" tells us that the M 11 will be a wonderful high MP sensor but with a cleverly added beauty that in all the good ways might just resemble the M9 sensor or maybe just an amazing beauty of its own that is in no way just another high MP sensor.

A cynical person might conclude this is just a sales pitch to tempt the many people who actually prefer the older look.

I mean leica ,voigtlander and the chinese companies are all well aware of this and produce lenses that are deliberately flawed or older designs.

Steven and jomo are good posters on here and jomo backs his reviews up with beautiful photographs but they both have a clear bias and relationship with leica which surely has to be considered when reading/viewing their input in leica land?

Only wrong thing you said is misspelling one of the names, it is Jono.

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2 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

Quite a few leica m users prefer older lenses or spherical lenses and some hark back to the lovely M9 or prefer 24 mp with cameras which creates a problem for leica with new high megapixel cameras and technically outstanding APO lenses.

But jomo slack clearly explains that the new 35mm apo for example is in no way cold and brutally clinical but is actually a lovely lens with all the magic of those older lenses but with performance to match = please buy one.

The poster "steven" tells us that the M 11 will be a wonderful high MP sensor but with a cleverly added beauty that in all the good ways might just resemble the M9 sensor or maybe just an amazing beauty of its own that is in no way just another high MP sensor.

A cynical person might conclude this is just a sales pitch to tempt the many people who actually prefer the older look.

I mean leica ,voigtlander and the chinese companies are all well aware of this and produce lenses that are deliberately flawed or older designs.

Steven and jomo are good posters on here and jomo backs his reviews up with beautiful photographs but they both have a clear bias and relationship with leica which surely has to be considered when reading/viewing their input in leica land?

I think we should credit Leica with some semblance of understanding it’s customer base (I’m not saying that you don’t think this..)

M9 = ok you can put away your M7 TTL now and go digital it’s like the m8 but with FF and you can still have “”organic/filmic”” images

M240 = yeah we get it, the world’s gone mirrorless, but hey we can offer all that tech stuff too

M10 = right we listened, we bundled the whizz bang tech stuff in the TL/CL/SL lines and got the M back to simpler basics

M10R = shit loads of pixels like the other guys you say? Relax we got this too

M11 = ???

But my personal opinion is that it’ll be something they believe we want, not something they’ll have to convince us to buy

(pretty sure it’s Jono by the way..)

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8 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I think we should credit Leica with some semblance of understanding it’s customer base (I’m not saying that you don’t think this..)

M9 = ok you can put away your M7 TTL now and go digital it’s like the m8 but with FF and you can still have “”organic/filmic”” images

M240 = yeah we get it, the world’s gone mirrorless, but hey we can offer all that tech stuff too

M10 = right we listened, we bundled the whizz bang tech stuff in the TL/CL/SL lines and got the M back to simpler basics

M10R = shit loads of pixels like the other guys you say? Relax we got this too

M11 = ???

But my personal opinion is that it’ll be something they believe we want, not something they’ll have to convince us to buy

(pretty sure it’s Jono by the way..)

M11 = Legend Reborn 

:)

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3 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

I think we should credit Leica with some semblance of understanding it’s customer base (I’m not saying that you don’t think this..)

M9 = ok you can put away your M7 TTL now and go digital it’s like the m8 but with FF and you can still have “”organic/filmic”” images

M240 = yeah we get it, the world’s gone mirrorless, but hey we can offer all that tech stuff too

M10 = right we listened, we bundled the whizz bang tech stuff in the TL/CL/SL lines and got the M back to simpler basics

M10R = shit loads of pixels like the other guys you say? Relax we got this too

M11 = ???

But my personal opinion is that it’ll be something they believe we want, not something they’ll have to convince us to buy

(pretty sure it’s Jono by the way..)

I agree but a part of their potential customer base for the M11 will need some convincing in my view.

I mean if the M11 gave a high megapxel but also a cinematic/film look that would convince the doubters maybe? 

Sorry i called jono jomo duh!

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16 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

they both have a clear bias

Debatable. I've trashed some of Leica's product. I've trashed some of their strategic decisions. And I keep comparing them to other stuff I try. The only truth is that I believe they do it better than others. For now. In terms of ergonomics, of colours, of software, of experience, of feeling... Just my honest opinion. 

Also, remember that I pay for everything I get. Sometimes twice the price, to skip the line. 

As far as Jono, I don't speak for him, but from reading his reviews in the past, they seemed to be quite neutral, objective, exhaustive, and informative. Mistrust is never the feeling I had from his previous articles. 

I get your point though. We look like fan boys. But my neutrality is not what you should worry about. You should worry about my personality. I get over exited about things very quickly. I'm a happy person. 

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Well from what’s Steve’s said about the crop and iirc (and quite possibly don’t) how some will find it gimmicky (so sorry if that’s wrong @Steven)

plus many recent discussions about resolution (which I’ll summarise as yay/nay)

my hunch 

(and before I go any further on that, I have zero, nothing, nada on inner Leica workings, I don’t have the budget to get into their good books, nor the reach on social media. I ask the local store manager questions and get a poker face that’s second only to the poker face I get when I ask for discount on secondhand stuff)

is that the M11 will endeavour to do what the M10 and M10R does now… lower res softer looking images for those that want that and predominately display their work in pixels and high res digital sharpness for those for whom if it ain’t on a print it ain’t a photo

(and of course those both that like both)

A legend reborn?

Hmmmm well I don’t know about that… but a camera that somehow tries to include what we (as a collective, not as individuals) liked about the 18/24/40px options…? That could just be what marketing words mean when they say a legend reborn.

We’ll find out soon enough.

Edited by Adam Bonn
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33 minutes ago, steve 1959 said:

I mean if the M11 gave a high megapxel but also a cinematic/film look that would convince the doubters maybe? 

It certainly would convince me! At the end of the day, IMHO, what I think would be a “holy grail” from the M is an output that resembles 6x9 drum-scanned low ISO film.  So something with a lot of fine detail (“resolution”) ….but, at the same time, with a rendering that is as smooth / gentle / digitally unharsh as possible. 

 

Edited by Jon Warwick
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32 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

It certainly would convince me! At the end of the day, IMHO, what I think would be a “holy grail” from the M is an output that resembles 6x9 drum-scanned low ISO film.  So something with a lot of fine detail (“resolution”) ….but, at the same time, with a rendering that is as smooth / gentle / digitally unharsh as possible. 

 

That's called the Leica S. But yes, I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

Of course, it would have to be a very long heartbeat. With supply chain issues, I'm betting we see the M12 before the M11 hits the stores.

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21 hours ago, steve 1959 said:

This thread just shows how many people get caught up in the consumer driven bullshit that drives otherwise intelligent people to imagine that buying the so called latest and greatest will somehow make any difference to anything.

The cameras change but the pictures are just the same mix of the good  and the the bad.

I think very few people ever bounce off the limits of their gear, especially Leica gear. If that's you, don't just assume that everyone else falls into the same camp.

Every new camera release has people who simply don't see the need to upgrade pushing their view on others, and people who really shouldn't be upgrading getting suckered into it. State your points for sure, you might save someone a costly mistake, but don't insult peoples intelligence for wanting to upgrade, I can't see how that's helpful.

On my Sony I shoot a lot of birds in flight, sometimes very small birds chasing tiny insects. Resolution, autofocus, and burst speed are king, so when there are improvements in that field it's a worthy upgrade. I regularly reach the limits of my equipment, both lenses and cameras, but that's a very different way of shooting and I don't use my Leica cameras like that. 

For the way I use my Leicas, I don't see anything in the M11 that looks like a worthy upgrade over the M10R just yet, but we don't really have any information either. I would think anyone coming from an M10p or 240 who wants the higher res and a lot more room to push the files in post will be very happy with the M11, but no-one will know the caveats until the specs + reviews are released.

 

 

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20 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Profiles effectively automate things that we can do in RAW software.

Be that make AWB work better, add a tone curve, change the hue of green/red/blue - all can done in the profile, or in LR/C1/etc

There’s quite of a lot of things that go on in a LR/ACR (.dcp) profile.

There’s often a rhetoric on the internet that one merely needs to shoot a target of coloured squares under a light source or two and colour nirvana awaits.

That’s not beyond the realm of fantasy, but the reality is that gives you a very basic profile, that actually does little more than control how the WB tag embedded within the RAW is processed by LR/etc, I’m not saying that WB isn’t important, but how often do we edit a RAW only for WB and say my work here is done?

So to get more from our profiling we can (and should IMHO) beef our profile up with the various elements that are recommended by the DNG spec (last time I mentioned these and even provided samples of their effect, it turned a little bit into a shit show, so reach out to me if anyone is interested… long story short, paid for Lumariver is a better tool than freebie X-Rite and DNG profile editor, but you can get quite far using these tools and some linear algebra)

If everything goes well we’ll have a profile that works well…

…but of course we’ll also have a profile full of compromises, our key light in the field won’t always be the same as the light we used to profile our camera, unlike our test targets our subjects won’t necessarily be bathed in pure glare free rays of known illuminate goodness !!

It’s not even a bad idea to have several profiles as starting points for various editing needs, and too back those profiles up with presets created for various usage scenarios you often encounter. (People, nature etc and even my kid in sunlight, my kid under that horrible light that mrs Adam has in the lounge etc etc)

It’s very much worth profiling ones cameras, but it’s not Hogwarts… you’ll still have to put some work in afterwards, and some cameras have little erm foibles that can’t really be profiled away (IR, how the latent coding within the sensor pipeline can push  colour channels at different rates - eg the M240 😇)

I have to say here @gotium I’ve started off replying to you, but ended up writing something really quite generic, so apologies if it reads that I’m mansplaining to you how to suck eggs or whatever. Not my intention at all.

 

 

thanks for your detailed information related to pre made profile. I actually downloaded Linear profile to start of without any adjustment to DNG files. It's kind of mind-blowing what more you can do with the files compared to default profile. especially highlight. however I understand that each camera maker have made default profiles as it is a bit of work to get a good result. 

 

Cheers P

Link below where i downloaded those files: 

https://goodlight.us/linear-profiles.html?fbclid=IwAR2CZRp-e-P-_MfpL47JezLQysZoGfX3DNHvc1iSAOjsK8h7CXghkS1c4ww

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1 hour ago, P_Wijk said:

thanks for your detailed information related to pre made profile. I actually downloaded Linear profile to start of without any adjustment to DNG files. It's kind of mind-blowing what more you can do with the files compared to default profile. especially highlight. however I understand that each camera maker have made default profiles as it is a bit of work to get a good result. 

 

Cheers P

Link below where i downloaded those files: 

https://goodlight.us/linear-profiles.html?fbclid=IwAR2CZRp-e-P-_MfpL47JezLQysZoGfX3DNHvc1iSAOjsK8h7CXghkS1c4ww

You can make a linear profile tone curve (that effectively overrides the native TC  that your camera OEM embeds in the RAW and the one that adobe embeds in their LUT) with a single DNG, (freebie) DNG profile editor and about 5 minutes of your life

I made one for the M10 (from the standard adobe dcp) and posted it on here iirc the mods moved it too its own thread in the PP forum

A linear profile can certainly give you more flexibility in post, but it can add to the workload too (you tend to have to do a bit of work to get it to a stage where it would look as if you didn’t use a linear profile, also it’s not a magic wand, if data is clipped it’s still clipped with a linear profile)

I use Lumariver to profile cameras these days, which IMHO offers a very comprehensive toolset.

 

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6 minutes ago, petermullett said:

I'd settle for a wine that does all that, cheaper too............

Not necessarily.  A quick check on 2020 Mouton futures suggest a case would set you back $7500 or so.  A single bottle of Petrus can run as much or more.  An M seems quite the bargain by comparison.

Wine is a rather interesting analog though.  At the risk of repeating myself, I have found so far that each vintage of M I've owned, while clearly produced by the same Chateau, has had a noticeably different flavor profile, some more tannic, others a bit fruitier.  Each one's character best promoted when paired with the appropriate lenses.  And much as with fine Bordeaux, it has been far less costly to purchase futures as opposed to waiting for the vintage to mature. 

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  • Fang changed the title to Leak image of M11
  • jaapv changed the title to Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

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