Al Brown Posted December 7, 2021 Author Share #3241 Posted December 7, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 20 minutes ago, bags27 said: With Voigtlander knocking it out of the park with their M lenses, someone will come along with an M mount film camera--even a RF--for $3k or under that will be extremely tempting. Many have tried the M mount - Epson, Minolta*, Konica*, Voigtländer Cosina* (Bessa me mucho 😊), Rollei*, Zeiss*, Ricoh... nobody's camera is around anymore. Must be the dreary M curse... (* all these are film cameras) Edited December 7, 2021 by Al Brown 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 7, 2021 Posted December 7, 2021 Hi Al Brown, Take a look here Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted December 7, 2021 Share #3242 Posted December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said: Too lazy to search for the data.....who else produces a quality film camera these days other than Leica's MA and MP? Albeit a tiny percentage of the industry, there are still various companies producing quality view cameras and technical cameras, large and medium format. In fact, these are growing in popularity. Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenInTime Posted December 7, 2021 Share #3243 Posted December 7, 2021 1 hour ago, bags27 said: With Voigtlander knocking it out of the park with their M lenses, someone will come along with an M mount film camera--even a RF--for $3k or under that will be extremely tempting. The time is now : no need to worry about the shortage of electronic components ; the perfect cottage industry - home assembling clockwork cameras. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3244 Posted December 8, 2021 3 hours ago, Tailwagger said: Something seems off to me, as I fail to see how they could survive producing half a dozen different models with so few sales. Well, not to be glib but price x quantity = revenue. To survive one must either increase quantity or price. I think we know Leica's path. A decision that is working out quite nicely for all, we get the cachet, Leica gets the revenue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3245 Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Kwesi said: Well, not to be glib but price x quantity = revenue. To survive one must either increase quantity or price. I think we know Leica's path. A decision that is working out quite nicely for all, we get the cachet, Leica gets the revenue. I wasn't talking about any path. I was questioning the .15% market share. Revenue per Leica Camera Division for 2016/7 at 400M Euro. Let's do the basic math...7.5 million * .0015 = 11,250 units. For simplicity, let's say an average wholesale price of $5K per camera across all lines. That tallies a paltry ~$56M. Now of course, they earn money from optics as well, but I find it impossible to believe that lens revenue is 7x that of camera sales. So as I said, the 0.15% figure doesn't make sense unless it perhaps refers solely to M sales. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3246 Posted December 8, 2021 From different online sources, FWIW… .15% was the apparent market share 10 years ago, at which point sales from Leica cameras, lenses and accessories totaled $141M Euro. https://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/leica-aims-for-1-camera-market-share-1039773 Five years ago, Leica’s apparent market share was 1%, with 100,000 cameras sold annually. https://www.google.com/amp/s/leicarumors.com/2016/10/28/leica-is-selling-over-10000-cameras-per-year.aspx/amp/ Production capacity in 2012 for the M9 was about 20,000+. https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2012/06/production-numbers-of-leica-cameras-and.html?m=1 Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3247 Posted December 8, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 4 minutes ago, Jeff S said: Five years ago, Leica’s apparent market share was 1%, with 100,000 cameras sold annually. https://www.google.com/amp/s/leicarumors.com/2016/10/28/leica-is-selling-over-10000-cameras-per-year.aspx/amp/ Sounds like a far more reasonable figure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3248 Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tailwagger said: Now of course, they earn money from optics as well, but I find it impossible to believe that lens revenue is 7x that of camera sales. You failed to account for the Leica owners who confess to owning 25 different 50mm lenses. ........................ Just kidding - mostly. I do think you may have misinterepreted something - the Leica Camera Group is one and the same as Leica Camera AG (as opposed to Leica Microsystems, Leica Biosystems, and Leica Geosystems) https://www.leica.com/ So the figure of €400 million represents revenue not just from M/S/CL/TL/SL camera bodies (including pricey special editions), but also all the: M/TL/L/S lenses, optical viewfinders, EVFs, lens hoods, lens caps, flashes, Panaleicas, sports optics, and the service depts, (including Leica Camera Inc. in the USA, and other subsidaries). Not to mention watches. Every single product and service handled or made by, sold by and listed on the web site for Leica Camera AG. Lumped together. https://leica-camera.com/en-US/company https://leica-camera.com/en-int/Company/Press-Centre/Press-Releases/2017/Press-Release-Leica-Camera-AG-records-strong-revenue-growth-for-the-2016-2017-financial-year-and-bucks-the-downward-trend-in-the-camera-market Edited December 8, 2021 by adan Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cboy Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3249 Posted December 8, 2021 Im guessing the 64gb would support the tethering function as it would provide faster transfer speeds for seemless workflow between camera to phone and computer. Much like Pixii and Zx1. Great of Leica to follow suit. Lol Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFo Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3250 Posted December 8, 2021 I think that 64gb built in turns an $8900+ camera into the most expensive "SD card reader" on earth. Why oh why would I want to tie up my camera to download photos? Same reasoning for not caring about having a USB port for charging on the camera: it becomes the most expensive battery charger on earth. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3251 Posted December 8, 2021 10 hours ago, Al Brown said: Many have tried the M mount - Epson, Minolta*, Konica*, Voigtländer Cosina* (Bessa me mucho 😊), Rollei*, Zeiss*, Ricoh... nobody's camera is around anymore. Clearly none have been profitable enough so they were underpriced and doomed to failure. Given that Leica film cameras are hand built from batched parts I'd guess they are profitable in small numbers and can be assembled mostly to order if needs be. I wonder just how many flim cameras Leica now produces annually? I'd hazard a guess and suspect it may even be in three figures (several per day) but its a guess based on nothing more than the posts about new cameras on the forum. I wonder just how many Leica dealers have them in stock? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Bonn Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3252 Posted December 8, 2021 It’s conceivable (I have no data) that those who use the Leica camera branding (eg Huawei, Panasonic) are in some way paying for the privilege… perhaps not only an upfront payment but also amortised costs and maybe even a tariff per unit sold. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
T25UFO Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3253 Posted December 8, 2021 54 minutes ago, pgk said: I wonder just how many flim cameras Leica now produces annually? I'd hazard a guess and suspect it may even be in three figures (several per day) but its a guess based on nothing more than the posts about new cameras on the forum. I wonder just how many Leica dealers have them in stock? Difficult to say without checking every dealer. In the UK, Red Dot have all four variants of M-A and MP in stock. Ffordes have three out of the four with only the Black Paint MP shown as awaiting stock. I remember a few months ago Red Dot had a limited supply of MP Black Paint with 0.58 and 0.85 viewfinders, and they were all sold within a matter of days. The availability of good quality labs for processing and scanning, with some providing a We Transfer service for large file scans, is increasing the interest in analogue. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simone_DF Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3254 Posted December 8, 2021 13 hours ago, Al Brown said: Many have tried the M mount - Epson, Minolta*, Konica*, Voigtländer Cosina* (Bessa me mucho 😊), Rollei*, Zeiss*, Ricoh... nobody's camera is around anymore. Must be the dreary M curse... (* all these are film cameras) I paid about 450€ for a Bessa R2A 5-6 years ago and today they sell for 1500-2000€ on ebay, maybe it'd be a good time for Voigtlander to restart production Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Brown Posted December 8, 2021 Author Share #3255 Posted December 8, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Simone_DF said: I paid about 450€ for a Bessa R2A 5-6 years ago and today they sell for 1500-2000€ on ebay, maybe it'd be a good time for Voigtlander to restart production For sellers it is a great time for anything used in M mount but probably not so great time for anything new in M mount... Edited December 8, 2021 by Al Brown Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KFo Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3256 Posted December 8, 2021 6 minutes ago, Al Brown said: For sellers it is a great time for anything used in M mount but probably not so great time for anything new in M mount... I keep saying, for every digital M you buy, you need to buy a film M as a hedge. When you sell later, you sell both. The film M has appreciated some, the digital M has depreciated. With luck and chance smiling maybe you come almost even. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cboy Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3257 Posted December 8, 2021 30 minutes ago, KFo said: I keep saying, for every digital M you buy, you need to buy a film M as a hedge. When you sell later, you sell both. The film M has appreciated some, the digital M has depreciated. With luck and chance smiling maybe you come almost even. If I did that I'll be at a lost given the running cost of film has also increased. But I guess if you buy a film m purely for investment/ paper weight it might work. How much more a film m can appreciate to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkmoore Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3258 Posted December 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Al Brown said: For sellers it is a great time for anything used in M mount but probably not so great time for anything new in M mount... Agreed. Prices are crazy right now, especially for vintage lenses. A 50 black paint rigid goes for $15-25k right now when I bought one 2 years ago for $5k. Used MPs are selling for retail or more. Interesting though that newer gear is selling for good prices still if you are thrifty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3259 Posted December 8, 2021 19 hours ago, mmradman said: Very clever, not. If Leica really depended on 1 in 100 for business it would be gone along the Dodo long time ago. How you couldn't be more wrong 😅😅😅 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted December 8, 2021 Share #3260 Posted December 8, 2021 4 minutes ago, Steven said: How you couldn't be more wrong 😅😅😅 I don't think you understood what I meant. Check the post I was responding to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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