Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

[pgk]

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Eventually this thread will need a moderator to rename it "Leica M12 - your next camera?" which will mean not wasting time in a new thread reiterating everything that has been said already. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by pgk
typo

[Tailwagger]

10 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I really don’t know how appealing a new W-A-T-E would be.  I know people who have them love them, but I really do prefer primes.  In my camera bag at the moment, I have my Monochrom with APO 50 Summicron & M10-D with 28 Summilux, and 21 & 75 Summilux on a back-to-back lens cap.  I don’t really like to crop to field of view - I straighten and crop to tidy up an image, rather than to change the apparent focal length.

Our bags are pretty similar. I use to carry the 21 SEM, but I'm quite partial to 16mm, so these days it's the WATE.  It affords an extra, quite useful to me, focal length while still providing a 21mm in essentially the same space.  The rendering is a bit more in line with my preferences as well and pairs a bit better with the 28mm and 50mm 'luxes which complete my basic kit. If I'm out with M solo, depending on what I expect I might run into, I'll take either the 75 lux or a 90mm Elmarit.  More generally, I bring the SL2 along with the 75mm, 135mm ART or the Lumix 70-200 F2.8 + STC1.4, sometimes two of the three.

As I'm limited to 17" print wise, the added pixels of the 10-R are largely overkill. I found early on with the SL2 that there are a few circumstances where one can make better use of the added pixels. The most common case is shooting in portrait and cropping landscape to 3x4 or 4x5 typically for architectural shots or other tall verticals without having to resort to tilting upward and straightening things on the back end. Depending, one still has ~20+ MPx to work with. The other case involves using a wider focal length, again cropping cross frame to provide the equivalent framing of a lens roughly two steps up the chain, but with greater depth of field. The typical scenario is a subject in the near foreground juxtaposed against something of strong interest in the  background which requires deeper depth of field than I could otherwise attain without resorting to focus stacking. 

As for the will I buy an M11, tell me what it is, when it is, how dear it will be and I'll get back to you.  I've been on the list for an 11 from the day I picked up my 10-R, which I was on the list for the day I picked up my M10.  I'm tempted to find a nice M240/246 and an M9 or 10 instead, but we'll see. For B&W with earlier lenses the 240 remains my favorite. In my time at LUF, each new iteration has been met with skepticism but ultimately became the standard bearer. I've no doubt, despite all the initial hand ringing over the 10-R when it was released, once the 11 is here, there will be a large contingent that similarly proclaims the previous king the last true blood of the M dynasty, while others swear fealty to the new prince. Either way, this time around, no guilt, the 10-R stays regardless and when the Mevf arrives we'll see which one has to go. 

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[ianman]

6 minutes ago, pgk said:

Eventually this thread will need a moderator to rename it "Leica M12 - your next camera?" which will mean not wasing time in a new thread reiterating everything that has been said already. 

Good idea, it will save Jeff a lot of time 

[lct]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

OK. RF accuracy has got nothing whatsoever to do with circle of confusion. Happy now?😊

Always happy to read you of course but i will be even more if you can explain me how you calculate RF accuracy w/o taking circle of confusion values into account. The only formula i know of is b = e*f^2/k*z where b is the critical base length, e the visual acuity, f the focal length, k the aperture and z the circle of confusion... 

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb pgk:

Eventually this thread will need a moderator to rename it "Leica M12 - your next camera?" which will mean not wasting time in a new thread reiterating everything that has been said already. 

Great idea. Rename this thread „M11, M11, M11, M11 etc.“ as every point was repeated at least 10 times.

[LocalHero1953]

30 minutes ago, M10 for me said:

Great idea. Rename this thread „M11, M11, M11, M11 etc.“ as every point was repeated at least 10 times.

It's because we have a low opinion of Leica marketing managers and design engineers - we think they only read the last post in the thread - so we always want OUR opinion to be the last one.

[pgk]

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2 hours ago, lct said:

Always happy to read you of course but i will be even more if you can explain me how you calculate RF accuracy w/o taking circle of confusion values into account. The only formula i know of is b = e*f^2/k*z where b is the critical base length, e the visual acuity, f the focal length, k the aperture and z the circle of confusion... 

Ok, being a bit pedantic (I was say I was simply keeping you happy), rangefinders are mechanical devices whose accuracy can only be stated in terms of a +/- distance from that which they indicate. Your formula assumes a 'accurate' rangefinder and then equates this to the precision of viability of focus for a given circle of confusion. Happier now?😊

[pgk]

21 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

It's because we have a low opinion of Leica marketing managers and design engineers - we think they only read the last post in the thread - so we always want OUR opinion to be the last one.

In that case everyone will chip in again and again ad again ........

[lct]

50 minutes ago, pgk said:

Ok, being a bit pedantic (I was say I was simply keeping you happy), rangefinders are mechanical devices whose accuracy can only be stated in terms of a +/- distance from that which they indicate. Your formula assumes a 'accurate' rangefinder and then equates this to the precision of viability of focus for a given circle of confusion. Happier now?😊

Nice effort but the formula shows that a rangefinder can be accurate enough on A4 prints for instance but less so on billboards or 100% crops. 

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Which line?

The SL has autofocus and it's a brick, so apples and oranges

The Q has a fixed lens

The CL line is dead and won't be continued

Most recently, Stefan Daniel apparently said: "No decision has been made to continue the CL system".

[Simone_DF]

23 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Most recently, Stefan Daniel apparently said: "No decision has been made to continue the CL system".

Which means it's dead. The camera is 4 years old. Even if Leica decide to continue it tomorrow, between the long design cycle (usually 2 years) and the uncertainty of the semiconductor crisis, it will be 3 year at a minimum, possibly more, for a CL2.

In the meantime, who is going to buy a 5-6 years old camera in 2022 or 2023 at Leica prices? And their lenses? Sales will keep dropping year after year to the point of no return, especially when competitors keep churning out cameras every 2-3 years.  

[Kim Dahl]

27 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Which means it's dead. The camera is 4 years old. Even if Leica decide to continue it tomorrow, between the long design cycle (usually 2 years) and the uncertainty of the semiconductor crisis, it will be 3 year at a minimum, possibly more, for a CL2.

In the meantime, who is going to buy a 5-6 years old camera in 2022 or 2023 at Leica prices? And their lenses? Sales will keep dropping year after year to the point of no return, especially when competitors keep churning out cameras every 2-3 years.  

Unfortunately, I think you're right.  If we take His wording - "that no decision has been made yet".  Then it's already almost too late.  So we have to assume that the statement is only because they want to sell the last CL and TL2 without too much loss.

[Tailwagger]

6 hours ago, pgk said:

Eventually this thread will need a moderator to rename it "Leica M12 - your next camera?" which will mean not wasting time in a new thread reiterating everything that has been said already. 

This seems like far too radical a break from tradition. I'd support this notion, however, on one condition: the mods also merge in the M8, M9, M240 versions, pin it and give it it's own subforum.  Once all the participants have been corralled and identified, we all get free tickets to the B ark.

[setuporg]

Or just "Next M -- your next camera?" so we have to do it only once.

[cirke]

or even more laconic: next M yours?

[Tailwagger]

How 'bout  Mmmmmmmmmm vs Mmmmmmmmmmmm -  even more delicious than the last? 

[lct]

Or revealing M never meant Messsucher

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[ianman]

26 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

How 'bout  Mmmmmmmmmm vs Mmmmmmmmmmmm -  even more delicious than the last? 

Nah, because it's not!

[TeleElmar135mm]

Am 17.11.2021 um 22:07 schrieb lct:

Or revealing M never meant Messsucher

You are right - M means: Only for people who's name begins with M

Greetings from Michael

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Hallo,

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[ConfusedLens]

Absolutely my next camera. Just sold a Q, Q2, M10, and M10-D (in photo)  to pay for two of them and maximise price on exit hoping the M11 capabilities are great. 😇

Now I have no digital camera bodies and just film so it actually forces me to do nothing but film for awhile which is what I needed to be honest.

I cannot believe I sold four cameras in prep for this... 

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