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Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}


Al Brown

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14 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Focus accuracy of a rangefinder exceeds a SLR up to 90 mm. I assume that is comparable to an EVF. 

You're probably right.  But with the rangefinder, the problem is every eyeball with a 75mm Noctilux wide-open would need to be bang in the middle of the frame. An EVF, even if slightly less accurate than the rangefinder, would give many more options for both composition + for focus accuracy outside the very middle of the image.

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I have a solution to the OVF/RF vs EVF dilemma ; it's so simple, yet no one has implemented it :

Keep the eye level OVF and RF mechanism.

Provide a small high resolution LCD or OLED display on the top plate of the camera - above the RF , where the Leica script is.

Provide rails so that a Hasselblad like fold up WLF hood with magnifier can be slotted in; similarly 45 or 90 degree prisms could be used.

A traditionally engraved dress plate could cover this top display for those who find it distracting. Now with a top display, there is no need for the rear LCD.

Everyone is happy !

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Including for me. Presenting this debate as a battle between RF and EVF cameras is the best way to lose it IMHO.

Its not a battle between systems, its about implementation of a mature and effective RF system and an EVF compromise. For some the compromise is well worthwhile, for others it is not. The current compromise from Leica is the M to L adapter on a suitable SL series camera. It is presented as a compromise - because adapters almost invariably are and are accepted as such. But the concept of building a body which is a compromise moves Leica into different territory IMO and is a risk.

FWIW I do use both M on RF and M on EVF (Sony and Leica SL). To me the M on RF works very well whilst the M on SL is slower and less precise. Trade-offs are inevitable when adapting older systems to new technologies. Also FWIW I do have 21/35/90 M lenses and 20/35/90 Sony lenses. In terms of size and weight they are vastly different. In terms of usability, each works well on its native system and the M lenses work ok on the Sony but not as well and slower. The images from either system are extremely good.

To me the solution to this question is an M sized SL series camera, but of course it will not be an M bayoent camera as it would still require an M to L adapter ..... It would however address all the technical issues discussed here as effectively as any solution will.

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29 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

You're probably right.  But with the rangefinder, the problem is every eyeball with a 75mm Noctilux wide-open would need to be bang in the middle of the frame. An EVF, even if slightly less accurate than the rangefinder, would give many more options for both composition + for focus accuracy outside the very middle of the image.

 

 

From Günther Osterloh, Leica M Advanced Photo School

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2 minutes ago, pgk said:

To me the solution to this question is an M sized SL series camera, but of course it will not be an M bayoent camera as it would still require an M to L adapter ..... It would however address all the technical issues discussed here as effectively as any solution will.

Hard to follow you here. It wouldn't address soft corners on M wides nor the lack of auto image magnification.  

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3 minutes ago, lct said:

Hard to follow you here. It wouldn't address soft corners on M wides nor the lack of auto image magnification.  

Well in theory at least, it could. An M sized SL could have offset sensor micro lenses provided they could opreate viably with SL lenses, and a new adapter which had an RF 'lever' to sense focus  movement would not be an impossibility. I would question the viability of both technically though and whether the user numbers would be sufficient to make either or both economic. The potential number of users is potentially the biggest obstacle to such a camera being produced.

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7 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well in theory at least, it could. An M sized SL could have offset sensor micro lenses provided they could opreate viably with SL lenses, and a new adapter which had an RF 'lever' to sense focus  movement would not be an impossibility. 

Never heard of microlenses that would work as well for L and M lenses so far. Leica would use them if they were feasible i guess. Same for the "new" adapter with RF lever that never existed either in fact or as a project. I seem to recall that we discussed about it at the launch of the SL here. Was it 5 years ago yet? Never heard of it since then.

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Focus accuracy of an accurate rangefinder exceeds a SLR up to 90 mm. I assume that is comparable to an EVF. 

My insertion in bold.

If your focus is wrong it might be because your skill is inadequate, because your rangefinder is out, because your lens is out, or because the lens has focus shift. An EVF bypasses that uncertainty (though SLRs have their own accuracy issues).

Edited by LocalHero1953
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16 hours ago, adan said:

At this point:

1) the discussion has little to do with the M11 - which we already know will not have a built-in EVF, but probably will have an improved accessory-shoe EVF.

2) many of the posts are 1-line "bumper-stickers," not serious, well-organized cases for, or against, an Mevf. And repetitive. And often about minutiae ("someone is wrong on the Internet" about this or that minor point. ;) ).

3) Why don't those who want an EVF-M ask the mods to set up a poll (a serious one, that produces bar-graphs), along the lines of:

Would you buy an M-mount Leica body that exactly replicates the size, weight and form-factor of the classic rangefinder M, but with an EVF in place of the optical RF/VF?

 - definitely

- probably

- maybe

- not interested at all

- only as a back-up camera to a classic rangefinder M

- only if it had a hybrid RF/EVF

How good must the EVF be?

- better than anything Leica currently offers.

- at least as good as the current SL2/SL2-S EVF (6 megapixels)

- at least as good as the Q2 EVF (3.62 megapixels)

- at least as good as the most current Visoflex accessory EVF (2.4 megapixels)

- at least a good as the CL EVF (2.36 megapixels)

How large an eyepiece would you accept for an EVF-M

- no larger than the current M10 eyepiece (19mm outside diameter)

- no larger than the CL eyepiece (xx? mm )

- no larger than the Q2 eyepiece (xx? mm)

- no larger than the SL-series eyepiece (xx? mm)

- no larger than the most current Visoflex EVF eyepiece (xx? mm)

What price would you expect to pay for such a camera?

- €3500-€4500

- €4500-€5500

- €5500-€6500

- €6500-€7500

- €7500-€8500

- €8500-€9500

What price would you be willing to pay for such a camera?

- €3500-€4500

- €4500-€5500

- €5500-€6500

- €6500-€7500

- €7500-€8500

- €8500-€9500

That would provide Leica with some hard numbers on which to decide if they can sell enough EVF-Ms, and for how much, and whether it would be economically viable and worth the R&D investment. As well as guidance on preferred specs.

As well as a dedicated place to take that part of the discussion (I'm sure it is not going away, M11 or no M11).

(Feel free, of course, to edit my wording before posting).

Would you buy an M-mount Leica body that exactly replicates the size, weight and form-factor of the classic rangefinder M, but with an EVF in place of the optical RF/VF? Probably as long it's full-frame with exchangeable lens mount (M-mount preferred since I am not going to use L lenses). It would perfectly add to my OVF-based rangefinder M cameras. 

How good must the EVF be? I am currently using older EVF-based systems: my Sony A7R (first generation) and the external VF-2 for my M-E 240 camera. I am fine with this but wouldn't mind getting an upgrade in EVF-technology with such hypothetical EVF-based camera. My answer is "at least as good as the most current Visoflex accessory EVF (2.4 megapixels)".

How large an eyepiece would you accept for an EVF-M: I have no experience so far with any dedicated Leica EVF-based camera, so I can't answer this question. But I am honestly not too worried about the size factor in this aspect. 

What price would you expect to pay for such a camera? I wouldn't buy such camera brand new but later as used version. I wouldn't be surprised if Leica charges €5500-€6500 for it as new. 

Time to get out now with my M-E 240 and M6 to shoot a bit. No matter when and what kind of new Leica camera arrives, I can still make great photos with older gear I continue to enjoy. :)

Edited by Martin B
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28 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

My insertion in bold.

If your focus is wrong it might be because your skill is inadequate, because your rangefinder is out, because your lens is out, or because the lens has focus shift. An EVF bypasses that uncertainty (though SLRs have their own accuracy issues).

Well, I tend to only use cameras and lenses that are in a good condition. Compare a faulty RF camera to a faulty EVF one… As for inadequate skills, we are on LUF here and all our members are highly accomplished photographers. 

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41 minutes ago, Martin B said:

Would you buy an M-mount Leica body that exactly replicates the size, weight and form-factor of the classic rangefinder M, but with an EVF in place of the optical RF/VF? Probably as long it's full-frame with exchangeable lens mount (M-mount preferred since I am not going to use L lenses). It would perfectly add to my OVF-based rangefinder M cameras. 

How good must the EVF be? I am currently using older EVF-based systems: my Sony A7R (first generation) and the external VF-2 for my M-E 240 camera. I am fine with this but wouldn't mind getting an upgrade in EVF-technology with such hypothetical EVF-based camera. My answer is "at least as good as the most current Visoflex accessory EVF (2.4 megapixels)".

How large an eyepiece would you accept for an EVF-M: I have no experience so far with any dedicated Leica EVF-based camera, so I can't answer this question. But I am honestly not too worried about the size factor in this aspect. 

What price would you expect to pay for such a camera? I wouldn't buy such camera brand new but later as used version. I wouldn't be surprised if Leica charges €5500-€6500 for it as new. 

Time to get out now with my M-E 240 and M6 to shoot a bit. No matter when and what kind of new Leica camera arrives, I can still make great photos with older gear I continue to enjoy. :)

Coming into this late but assume it's a copy and paste Q :D newbie opinion: 

Would you buy an M-mount Leica body that exactly replicates the size, weight and form-factor of the classic rangefinder M, but with an EVF in place of the optical RF/VF? No, because I love the RF in comparison to EVF cameras I have. Since I bought an M I've barely touched the EVF cameras since. This could be a phase / novelty of course. 

How good must the EVF be? I am in camp that feels EVF is a dangerous road - if it needs to be x and y spec then IMO it's getting into competing with Sony and Fuji category, and what's the point - these guys are releasing cameras with upgraded specs every 6 months it's ridiculous.  

Looking through a rangefinder and being completely fascinated by a) unique experience and b) the overall feeling of quality to that experience as the rangefinder patch slides into focus .... was the unique selling point of the M for me personally.   My introduction to Leica was walking into the Leica store to look at a Q, it held my attention for about 30 seconds and I spent the next 20minutes playing with an M10 and and happily sliding things in and out of focus on the rangefinder patch, while the sales rep tried (unsuccessfully) to bring my attention to Live View on the back screen.   

How large an eyepiece would you accept for an EVF-M: N/A 

What price would you expect to pay for such a camera? N/A 

Again a relative newbie here but surely they wouldn't go this direction would they (Visoflex being the solution for those needing  / wanting it, surely).  Apologies if I missed something (or a lot) but just can't see it happening and if it does would it not be another system?

I may need to read back a few pages over the weekend :) 

Edited by grahamc
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2 hours ago, pgk said:

To me the solution to this question is an M sized SL series camera, but of course it will not be an M bayoent camera as it would still require an M to L adapter ..... It would however address all the technical issues discussed here as effectively as any solution will.

ah yes if it's effectively another system that's being proposed here then the Namby Pamby gang can carry on :D   Play on no foul . 

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Well here it comes again, the rangefinder / EVF conundrum.........Could be wrong but personally I can't see Leica giving up on the OVF/rangefinder any M version soon, why would they? As other's have pointed out there's enough far larger based camera manufacturers out there that will always be a step or two ahead of whatever Leica does electronically, after all Leica probably buys in a lot of their electronic components from manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic so why would they give Leica a leg-up over what they produce for their own products? No, I think the Luddite Rangefinder crowd are safe for the time being at least. The promise of a decent upgraded Visoflex could be a balm for the EVF crowd, who knows it might well look and work very nicely indeed? I hope so.

I'd not be interested at all in a EVF M, although I can understand those who would wish that it could come to pass sooner rather than later and I have no argument with that at all, in fact it would for me draw a line under any future upgrade from a OVF/RF M to a fully EVF M and my wallet will take a breath.

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13 minutes ago, petermullett said:

Well here it comes again, the rangefinder / EVF conundrum.........Could be wrong but personally I can't see Leica giving up on the OVF/rangefinder any M version soon, why would they? As other's have pointed out there's enough far larger based camera manufacturers out there that will always be a step or two ahead of whatever Leica does electronically, after all Leica probably buys in a lot of their electronic components from manufacturers like Sony and Panasonic so why would they give Leica a leg-up over what they produce for their own products? No, I think the Luddite Rangefinder crowd are safe for the time being at least. The promise of a decent upgraded Visoflex could be a balm for the EVF crowd, who knows it might well look and work very nicely indeed? I hope so.

I'd not be interested at all in a EVF M, although I can understand those who would wish that it could come to pass sooner rather than later and I have no argument with that at all, in fact it would for me draw a line under any future upgrade from a OVF/RF M to a fully EVF M and my wallet will take a breath.

You, as many, assume that it's either a EVF M or nothing. No one of the people wanting an EVF wants to take away the rangefinder.

A EVF M can be produced alongside a traditional rangefinder M, not as a replacement, it's not that complicated, really.

And no, the external EVF is an half assed solution that prevents you to use a flash, among many other issues.

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3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

Provide a small high resolution LCD or OLED display on the top plate of the camera - above the RF , where the Leica script is.

Provide rails so that a Hasselblad like fold up WLF hood with magnifier can be slotted in; similarly 45 or 90 degree prisms could be used.

 

You have just described the current Visoflex 022 EVF. It slides into the 'rails' of the flash shoe. Works great, for what it is! I use it all the time on my M10-D (with no rear LCD) for monochrome pre-visualization of the current composition, to examine the histogram, and to check various automatically-set parameters like shutter and ISO.

In normal position, it provides a view in parallel to the RF, but it can be rotated up to 90° for a top-down view if you like (or if, as it often does, leave its little click and rotate while it's in your bag). The entire EVF rotates, so there's no need for bulky prisms or mirrors.

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36 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You, as many, assume that it's either a EVF M or nothing. No one of the people wanting an EVF wants to take away the rangefinder.

A EVF M can be produced alongside a traditional rangefinder M, not as a replacement, it's not that complicated, really.

And no, the external EVF is an half assed solution that prevents you to use a flash, among many other issues.

Entirely agree

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  • Fang changed the title to Leak image of M11
  • jaapv changed the title to Leica M11 - your next camera? {MERGED}

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