To P or to R, that is the Question

[RayD28]

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I read Read's review and I've read the relevant posts in Jono Slacks thread.  It's time for me to shit or get off the pot.

Read said the noise difference between the P & R are similar until you match file dimensions (5976 X3 984) for the P and 7864 X5200) for the R.  When you do that the R outperforms the P.   ISO is a   priority for me.  Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

If the answer is in favor for the R, then my next priority, cropping, should also be answered.  

@jonoslackI'd really appreciate your input.  

Thanks in advance for your advice.  

[RayD28]

39 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

I read Read's review and I've read the relevant posts in Jono Slacks thread.  It's time for me to shit or get off the pot.

Read said the noise difference between the P & R are similar until you match file dimensions (5976 X3 984) for the P and 7864 X5200) for the R.  When you do that the R outperforms the P.   ISO is a   priority for me. I now use a M240. I’m looking for 2 or 3 extra stop Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

If the answer is in favor for the R, then my next priority, cropping, should also be answered.  

@jonoslackI'd really appreciate your input.  

Thanks in advance for your advice.  

 

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[jonoslack]

Hi There Ray

When I was first sent the -R to test I was quite certain that I didn't need or want the extra resolution. However, when I uploaded the first card the immediate response was 'F&*k Yes' The files are just much nicer - although the colour is a little different, something to get used to.

So, in my book the real advantage of the R is in the handling of highlights, which was always the weakspot of the M10 sensor - I feel that there is a stop of recovery in the M10-R, and then add in the fact that the base ISO is half that of the M10-P and you have nearly 2 stops more headroom, which is really significant shooting wide open in bright sunlight. 

It also means that when shooting in contrasty situations you don't need to protect the highlights, and that in turn makes it less likely that you will block in the shadows - so you have an obvious noise advantage here as well.

Then - let's talk ISO - I think that Sean and I came to the same conclusion, which is that the noise levels were about the same at 100%, but of course that gave the M10-R a significant advantage because of the higher resolution. So, Yes to your question, when you match the file dimensions the M10-R has a significant advantage with ISO (maybe 1/2 stop, but taken in conjunction with the highlight advantage it's significant).

. . . and the cropping - is really useful - especially in close up situations, and also using wider lenses. I've always been a 50mm guy, but with both the SL2 and the M10-R I've found myself shooting wider - cropping to 50 is no disadvantage compared to the M10-P but if you don't need to then you have more resolution. 

But it's the 'look' of the files which really gets to me every time I shoot with both - I have a much loved M10 as well, and tend to shoot it together with the M10-R with different lenses).

It seems to me that the £600 extra for an M10-R is the best money you can possibly spend right now!

Sorry - that doesn't sound very measured or restrained! but I feel quite strongly about it!

All the best

Jono

[RayD28]

Thanks so much, Jono!

My options are a lightly used M10-P and of course a new R, so the cost difference is close to $2,500.  Going from an M240 to an R should give me at least an extra three stops.  I get a little camera shake as I grow older so 1/30th to 1/125th will be welcome, but expensive.  

I normally shoot 50mm so some cropping will be great, too.  

By the way, it's so kind of you to respond so quickly.  The P I considered will sell soon (if not already) and I want to beat the upcoming price hike.

Ray

Edited March 29, 2021 by RayD28

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, RayD28 said:

Thanks so much, Jono!

My options are a lightly used M10-P and of course a new R, so the cost difference is close to $2,500.  Going from an M240 to an R should give me at least an extra three stops.  I get a little camera shake as I grow older so 1/30th to 1/125th will be welcome, but expensive.  

I normally shoot 50mm so some cropping will be great, too.  

By the way, it's so kind of you to respond so quickly.  The P I considered will sell soon (if not already) and I want to beat the upcoming price hike.

Ray

HI Ray

Pleased to be of service (If I have been!)

[Narsuitus]

12 hours ago, RayD28 said:

Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

Yes !

[tobey bilek]

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I am happy with low iso, 100- 90%  400-9%  >400-1%.

24 MP will print all my files as large as I want.  There are expanding programs if I need them.

I do not need more dynamic range than I can get.  I know how to expose so as not to overexpose.

So my “good by M9 corroded” will be replaced with M10P.

 

[jscottyk]

I just went through this decision process in the last couple months. Here's how it landed for me.

The short answer is the M10R value proposition for the extra money was just not there for me. Especially when considering where the M10R is in the product life cycle. YMMV.

[hdmesa]

M10-R for me:

• Character/tonality of the S3 sensor cropped down to 35mm.
• Highlight recovery close to what a BSI sensor can deliver.
• Better ability to crop on a system where most lenses only focus to 0.7m.
• Resale value

But it is definitely the time to make a move if you're going to since the R price will increase by $700 USD on 4/1.

Edited March 29, 2021 by hdmesa

[Steven]

On 3/29/2021 at 10:50 AM, jonoslack said:

Hi There Ray

When I was first sent the -R to test I was quite certain that I didn't need or want the extra resolution. However, when I uploaded the first card the immediate response was 'F&*k Yes' The files are just much nicer - although the colour is a little different, something to get used to.

So, in my book the real advantage of the R is in the handling of highlights, which was always the weakspot of the M10 sensor - I feel that there is a stop of recovery in the M10-R, and then add in the fact that the base ISO is half that of the M10-P and you have nearly 2 stops more headroom, which is really significant shooting wide open in bright sunlight. 

It also means that when shooting in contrasty situations you don't need to protect the highlights, and that in turn makes it less likely that you will block in the shadows - so you have an obvious noise advantage here as well.

Then - let's talk ISO - I think that Sean and I came to the same conclusion, which is that the noise levels were about the same at 100%, but of course that gave the M10-R a significant advantage because of the higher resolution. So, Yes to your question, when you match the file dimensions the M10-R has a significant advantage with ISO (maybe 1/2 stop, but taken in conjunction with the highlight advantage it's significant).

. . . and the cropping - is really useful - especially in close up situations, and also using wider lenses. I've always been a 50mm guy, but with both the SL2 and the M10-R I've found myself shooting wider - cropping to 50 is no disadvantage compared to the M10-P but if you don't need to then you have more resolution. 

But it's the 'look' of the files which really gets to me every time I shoot with both - I have a much loved M10 as well, and tend to shoot it together with the M10-R with different lenses).

It seems to me that the £600 extra for an M10-R is the best money you can possibly spend right now!

Sorry - that doesn't sound very measured or restrained! but I feel quite strongly about it!

All the best

Jono

Thanks for typing this up Jono. You highlight (no pun intended) some excellent advantages that the R has over the P, beyond just resolution. Two things you said raised my curiosity. 

"The files are just much nicer - although the colour is a little different, something to get used to."

"But it's the 'look' of the files which really gets to me every time I shoot with both - I have a much loved M10 as well, and tend to shoot it together with the M10-R with different lenses)."

I am very curious. Can you tell us more about the look, or colour difference between the M10P and the M10R? 

Thank you. Cheers.

[hdmesa]

11 hours ago, Steven said:

Thanks for typing this up Jono. You highlight (no pun intended) some excellent advantages that the R has over the P, beyond just resolution. Two things you said raised my curiosity. 

"The files are just much nicer - although the colour is a little different, something to get used to."

"But it's the 'look' of the files which really gets to me every time I shoot with both - I have a much loved M10 as well, and tend to shoot it together with the M10-R with different lenses)."

I am very curious. Can you tell us more about the look, or colour difference between the M10P and the M10R? 

Thank you. Cheers.

Setting the bait and letting other M10 owners snap the trap? 🙃

And the "I can adjust any camera's RAW to look like any other camera" crowd will be here in 5... 4... 3... for backup.

Edited March 30, 2021 by hdmesa

[Snipe10]

Went with the P

[Steven]

51 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

Setting the bait and letting other M10 owners snap the trap? 🙃

And the "I can adjust any camera's RAW to look like any other camera" crowd will be here in 5... 4... 3... for backup.

Seriously though, a lot of people talk about a lot of good things of the M10R, and while I've heard mentions of the colour science being different and similar to the S3, I havent heard much details yet. I'm genuinely curious.

[hdmesa]

21 minutes ago, Steven said:

Seriously though, a lot of people talk about a lot of good things of the M10R, and while I've heard mentions of the colour science being different and similar to the S3, I havent heard much details yet. I'm genuinely curious.

It's not just similar to the S3, the sensor is literally the S3 sensor cut down to 35mm size. Looking at some S3 samples might give you a better idea since the S lenses give a very consistent look. Lots of lens types being used on the M10-R here and elsewhere: Lux/Cron/Sum, CV, APO/non-APO, vintage lenses, etc., so it may be difficult to get a good idea of the R sensor characteristics just by browsing Flickr for M10-R images. Maybe try and filter Flickr for M10+50Lux, then filter for M10-R+50Lux.

The best way I could describe the M10-R is it matches the tonality I get with the Q2M. The M10-P I had did not feel as in sync with the Q2M. Probably all just in my head, but after all this kind of stuff is purely anecdotal anyway.

[junix]

6 hours ago, hdmesa said:

The best way I could describe the M10-R is it matches the tonality I get with the Q2M.

I only had the Q2M for 2 days now (not even full days..) so I didn’t have time to properly explore it but I think you could be onto something here..

[Photoworks]

can anybody post some color samples..?

[hdmesa]

4 hours ago, Photoworks said:

can anybody post some color samples..?

Color photos of which?

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268528-m10-the-image-thread/

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314837-m-10-r-image-thread/

 

[Photoworks]

3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Color photos of which?

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268528-m10-the-image-thread/

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/314837-m-10-r-image-thread/

 

was hoping for a side by side comparison

[Kwesi]

On 3/28/2021 at 9:04 PM, RayD28 said:

I read Read's review and I've read the relevant posts in Jono Slacks thread.  It's time for me to shit or get off the pot.

Read said the noise difference between the P & R are similar until you match file dimensions (5976 X3 984) for the P and 7864 X5200) for the R.  When you do that the R outperforms the P.   ISO is a   priority for me.  Can anyone give me a definitive answer?

If the answer is in favor for the R, then my next priority, cropping, should also be answered.  

@jonoslackI'd really appreciate your input.  

Thanks in advance for your advice.  

What is your current base ISO?

I understand you are trying to avoid camera shake. the usable max on the M240 for me was 3200. On the M10-P my max is 6400.

if you need more then consider the R

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[hdmesa]

6 hours ago, Photoworks said:

was hoping for a side by side comparison

Normally I would reply and post a photo of the cameras themselves 😂

I can't see why anyone would have both unless the P was a special edition or something.