Editing: Adobe RGB or sRGB?

[Rokkor]

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Hi,

 

with a new monitor that can display 100% sRGB and 99% Adobe RGB, I am getting more into color management as a topic. After reading about it, I have a question around the best workflow in Capture One.

With my Leica Q I use RAW, so the point of departure is a “neutral” dng image. If I mostly use images ultimately digitally with some habitual printing:

Would it make sense to set the Capture One Workspace to Adobe RGB as well as the monitor and export to sRGB afterwards?

Often people seem to advise to work in the broadest color space (Pro Photo/ Adobe RGB) while editing and export to a reduced space afterwards (sRGB).

What is your experience here? Woukd there a benefit to edit in sRGB or a risk editing in Adobe RGB with sRGB export in mind?

The pictures look more vivid and lively in Adobe RGB,.

Thank you in advance.

Edited March 28, 2021 by Rokkor

[jaapv]

That is precisely the right workflow.

I would even advise using Prophoto for editing, despite your monitor being unable to render it. Consider that when you reduce the colourspace, the outlying colours get irrecoverably converted to colours that can be defined and are lost forever.
So you would lose the ability to make changes in those outliers of the gamut which your monitor cannot render, but you will see the changes in the (automatic by your screen drivers) conversion on your monitor.

Be aware that once you dumb down you can never scale up.

Edit in the widest colour space and dumb down before exporting.

Note that many printers and devices can use and render Adobe RGB nowadays so going all the way is not needed in all cases. However, if you are not certain where your image will end up, it is best to go all the way to sRGB, as the lowest common denominator.

This book is required reading for anybody interested in colour management, despite being older:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-2nd/dp/0321267222

 

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-REALW-ebook/dp/B004P8J1OY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2Q0ZXX3D69X53&keywords=real+world+color+management%2C+2nd+edition&qid=1616920663&sprefix=real+world+colour%2Caps%2C246&sr=8-1

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[Rokkor]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

That is precisely the right workflow.

I would even advise using Prophoto for editing, despite your monitor being unable to render it. Consider that when you reduce the colourspace, the outlying colours get irrecoverably converted to colours that can be defined and are lost forever.
So you would lose the ability to make changes in those outliers of the gamut which your monitor cannot render, but you will see the changes in the (automatic by your screen drivers) conversion on your monitor.

Be aware that once you dumb down you can never scale up.

Edit in the widest colour space and dumb down before exporting.

Note that many printers and devices can use and render Adobe RGB nowadays so going all the way is not needed in all cases. However, if you are not certain where your image will end up, it is best to go all the way to sRGB, as the lowest common denominator.

This book is required reading for anybody interested in colour management, despite being older:
 

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-2nd/dp/0321267222

 

https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Color-Management-REALW-ebook/dp/B004P8J1OY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2Q0ZXX3D69X53&keywords=real+world+color+management%2C+2nd+edition&qid=1616920663&sprefix=real+world+colour%2Caps%2C246&sr=8-1

Thank you very much - this is very helpful. 👍🏻
 

Would there also be a disadvantage editing RAW  in ProPhoto/Adobe RGB when afterwards converting into sRGB? I understand there wouldn’t really. I just wonder if e.g. I could edit a green in Adobe RGB and the enhancement of this green tone in Adobe RGB e.g. might result in enhancing a maybe not so pleasing green tone in sRGB that I would not have touched if I had worked n sRGB?

If I do a soft proof in Capture One I could see how it looks like even if I keep the monitor in Adobe RGB setting?

Still a bit unclear. I take that Raw->Prophoto Editing (with Adobe RGB monitor setting-> export into sRGB (for digital) or Adobe RGB (for print) would be a good workflow.

 

thanks again

[jaapv]

No, there is no disadvantage in editing in Prophoto or Adobe RGB (consistently!!. Once you move to a smaller space there is no recovering the converted colours) and choosing the correct output for export. Rather the opposite: it is the correct workflow.

As to your "green" question:  As the green is converted it would not exist in your sRGB any more. You would have killed it instead of leaving it untouched. Nor can you restore it by returning to Adobe RGB.  Trust the converting algorithms of your postprocessing software and monitor.
The colour space may be expanded again to Adobe RGB but your gamut will remain sRGB which will result in flat and desaturated colours. Always stay in the same highest colour space when editing.

The workflow you propose at the end is correct.

FYI: Lightroom, for instance, works in Prophoto in the background despite feeding the monitor a lower space and only converts in the export dialog.

[wda]

May I add one more recommendation?  Set up a timed routine to recalibrate your new monitor. Mine is set for 200 hours interval.

[zeitz]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

there is no disadvantage in editing in Prophoto or Adobe RGB

This is not exactly true if you intend to use you image in other software such as Microsoft Office, Open Office or even Adobe Acrobat.  The non-photo editing software knows what to do with Adobe RGB, but the colors from a ProPhoto file can get messed up when pasting a picture into text or presentation slides.

 

[jaapv]

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I know, but this question is about editing, not business applications which are not postprocessing programs. That is the background for the advice to export in Adobe RGB or sRGB.

[pgk]

3 hours ago, Rokkor said:

Often people seem to advise to work in the broadest color space (Pro Photo/ Adobe RGB) while editing and export to a reduced space afterwards (sRGB).

As ever, you need to define the purposes of your images - the output requirements - before considering your workflow. There is little point in going through a precise and time consuming workflow if the end output is for web use. You might as well work in sRGB throughout and see how the files look. On the other hand if your files are to be published as a book or in magazines then Adobe RGB MAY be preferable (depending on the understanding of the publisher who might prefer sRGB simply because they are used to them). There is unfortunately 'no size fits all' I am constantly having to ask people about output requirements prior to sending them files and although an 'ideal' or 'best practice' workflow sounds great in theory, it is all too often usurped by more base, practical requirements. So to answer your question, it can depend on your output, which you need to define.

[Rokkor]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

No, there is no disadvantage in editing in Prophoto or Adobe RGB (consistently!!. Once you move to a smaller space there is no recovering the converted colours) and choosing the correct output for export. Rather the opposite: it is the correct workflow.

As to your "green" question:  As the green is converted it would not exist in your sRGB any more. You would have killed it instead of leaving it untouched. Nor can you restore it by returning to Adobe RGB.  Trust the converting algorithms of your postprocessing software and monitor.
The colour space may be expanded again to Adobe RGB but your gamut will remain sRGB which will result in flat and desaturated colours. Always stay in the same highest colour space when editing.

The workflow you propose at the end is correct.

FYI: Lightroom, for instance, works in Prophoto in the background despite feeding the monitor a lower space and only converts in the export dialog.

Thanks jaapv. Then it seems fine to edit RAW and export to the use of the image assuming correct conversion by Capture One. So pictures are good for web and if needed for print.

[jaapv]

7 minutes ago, pgk said:

As ever, you need to define the purposes of your images - the output requirements - before considering your workflow. There is little point in going through a precise and time consuming workflow if the end output is for web use. You might as well work in sRGB throughout and see how the files look. On the other hand if your files are to be published as a book or in magazines then Adobe RGB MAY be preferable (depending on the understanding of the publisher who might prefer sRGB simply because they are used to them). There is unfortunately 'no size fits all' I am constantly having to ask people about output requirements prior to sending them files and although an 'ideal' or 'best practice' workflow sounds great in theory, it is all too often usurped by more base, practical requirements. So to answer your question, it can depend on your output, which you need to define.

What extra time does editing in Adobe RGB take over editing in sRGB?

[Rokkor]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb zeitz:

This is not exactly true if you intend to use you image in other software such as Microsoft Office, Open Office or even Adobe Acrobat.  The non-photo editing software knows what to do with Adobe RGB, but the colors from a ProPhoto file can get messed up when pasting a picture into text or presentation slides.

 

If not copy and adding but using capture one to export to sRGB it should be fine to use in office programs after the export. 

[Rokkor]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb pgk:

As ever, you need to define the purposes of your images - the output requirements - before considering your workflow. There is little point in going through a precise and time consuming workflow if the end output is for web use. You might as well work in sRGB throughout and see how the files look. On the other hand if your files are to be published as a book or in magazines then Adobe RGB MAY be preferable (depending on the understanding of the publisher who might prefer sRGB simply because they are used to them). There is unfortunately 'no size fits all' I am constantly having to ask people about output requirements prior to sending them files and although an 'ideal' or 'best practice' workflow sounds great in theory, it is all too often usurped by more base, practical requirements. So to answer your question, it can depend on your output, which you need to define.

I understood there is no additional time needed, is there? Shooting RAW and edit in Capture One. Then two scenarios:

• Print Export: select Adobe RGB

• Web Export: select sRGB

This way I could edit my pictures that  sometimes I use for web, instagram, WhatsApp initially and make a photo book or prints later.

[Rokkor]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

What extra time does editing in Adobe RGB take over editing in sRGB?

Good question. I also do not see why it takes more time as long as I use RAW and just export differently depending on use.

[pgk]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

What extra time does editing in Adobe RGB take over editing in sRGB?

Depends. I'm currently undertaking a project to digitise 500+ images. If you work out the extra time in converting to output requirements it can add up. And again working in a different colour space than the output space leaves an area of possible mistakes. Forget to convert one image and it may well look odd compared to the others with viewers or users not knowing why. I agree that in an ideal world we should all work to the best possible outcomes but there are other factors invloved in actuality. I always question perceived wisdom and have to say that I very rarely see any differences in files with these differing workflows because generally it is the output stage which diminishes the information contained within them.

If you are taking high quality images in order to print large and to exacting requirements then workflow is very important. I would suggest that this is a VERY small proportion of the photographs which are taken, even on Leicas!

[jaapv]

Actually, for that kind of work I would move to Lightroom for efficiency, even if I dislike it.

[zeitz]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I know, but this question is about editing, not business applications which are not postprocessing programs.

Jaap, you are editing for some purpose; not editing for the sake of editing.  So the purpose may be the Internet, it may be printing, or it may be incorporating images into documents or presentations.  The end use determines the editing approach.

[250swb]

18 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Jaap, you are editing for some purpose; not editing for the sake of editing.  So the purpose may be the Internet, it may be printing, or it may be incorporating images into documents or presentations.  The end use determines the editing approach.

It depends what you mean by 'editing'. If editing is making the photograph as good as it can be then that is where the most time is invested, compared with the two seconds it takes to press a button that changes the image from Adobe RGB to sRGB. So working in Adobe RGB to edit the image makes total sense, the image can be saved as a 'master' and resizing and switching colour space can be done in subsequent editing for the purpose intended. 

[jaapv]

38 minutes ago, zeitz said:

Jaap, you are editing for some purpose; not editing for the sake of editing.  So the purpose may be the Internet, it may be printing, or it may be incorporating images into documents or presentations.  The end use determines the editing approach.

Yes, so, as I said clearly, you EDIT in Prophoto/Adobe RGB and EXPORT in the colour space you need e.g. Adobe RGB for printing and sRGB for undetermined other use. It is not sensible to use the output colour space throughout the whole  workflow because you will be switching all the time and mistakes are preprogrammed. On top of that you will be losing quality without gain. Why should you?
That is the same answer for PGK, the most efficient - and fastest- is to have a standard workflow in a large colourspace throughout and make the choice the moment you export depending on the use you are going to make of the image.