Rangefinder M8. This is normal?

[Dopaco]

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I have a goal Elmar. 1: 4/135 - LEITZ - WETZLAR. (Year 1960, silver color for screw-on cameras). Today with an adapter I tested it on my M8 and the rangefinder worked fine and the focus seemed to be exact.

I recently bought another TELE lens - ELMAR 1: 4/135 -LEITZ - WETZLAR. Year 1973, black color and M mount). Today I also test it on my M8 and despite being much more modern the rangefinder does not work and of course the approach by that means does not work either. I have purchased this lens to use in my other Leica TL2 camera which, with its adapter, has passed all manual focus tests.

This matter has me a bit worried.
Can this be normal? ...
What can happen?..
Thanks.

[BrianS]

It would help to post an image of the back of the lens, showing the RF Cam.

I use a 135/2.8 Tele-Elmarit with my M8- no problems.

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[lct]

With 135mm lenses, f/4 is out of the accuracy range of the M8's rangefinder normally. Try f/5.6. If this does not work it may be that your lens and/or M8 need some calibration. 

[Dopaco]

4 hours ago, BrianS said:

It would help to post an image of the back of the lens, showing the RF Cam.

I use a 135/2.8 Tele-Elmarit with my M8- no problems.

 

Here the one that works perfectly on M8. (year 1960)

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The marked slot is larger than the non-working one

 

 

Here the one that does not work with M8. (year 1973). It was bought for the TL2 Camera, there it works.

 

The marked slot is smaller than the one that DOES work

Edited March 27, 2021 by Dopaco

[BrianS]

While looking at the RF "Toungue" of the lens, move the focus from Closest focus to infinity and back again. I had one lens that "hung up", required the mechanism be cleaned and lubed. If the RF Cam is not snapping back into position, it will give incorrect results.

[Dopaco]

3 hours ago, lct said:

With 135mm lenses, f/4 is out of the accuracy range of the M8's rangefinder normally. Try f/5.6. If this does not work it may be that your lens and/or M8 need some calibration. 

With F5.6 it still does not work, the 2 figures come out parallel but without moving even if you rotate the focus.The camera works with another 135mm f4 and with all the M lenses that I have, so the problem must be with this lens.

My intention is not to use it on the M8 but if I ever need it, I better be able to do it. It is also under warranty.

This same lens in an M9 if I have read that it works in M8 I have not seen anything yet,

Edited March 27, 2021 by Dopaco

[Dopaco]

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54 minutes ago, BrianS said:

While looking at the RF "Toungue" of the lens, move the focus from Closest focus to infinity and back again. I had one lens that "hung up", required the mechanism be cleaned and lubed. If the RF Cam is not snapping back into position, it will give incorrect results.

The lens is well cared for (I'd say like new) it doesn't seem to have any lubrication issues, it moves smoothly and precisely and with my other Leica TL2 camera it's working and focusing very well (in manual mode clear).

[lct]

I would return the lens then if it is under warranty.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Dopaco,

 Before returning the lens, if you are considering that as an option, please unscrew the lens head from the focusing mount the same way that your other 135mm lens head unscrews. 

Then look at the side of the lens head that is normally hidden in the focusing mount and see if 2 of the numbers scratched into it are the same "55" that is next to the "m" on the focusing mount. You should also find the end of the serial number that is engraved in the outside front ring of the lens.

Please let us know what you find.

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited March 28, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[tommonego@gmail.com]

Also look at the focusing tab on the lens and see if it moves while focusing the lens, it could be damaged in some way. Also the M8 doesn't have 135 frame lines, though the 90 framelines are tight for a 90 and almost good for the 135. My M8 has sticky frame line actuation, so I can move it around and it will stick where I leave it. Should get it repaired, but that means back to Leica and I don't want to pay the money. Right now especially with the 135 it is a "feature". 

[pgk]

19 hours ago, Dopaco said:

I recently bought another TELE lens - ELMAR 1: 4/135 -LEITZ - WETZLAR. Year 1973, black color and M mount). Today I also test it on my M8 and despite being much more modern the rangefinder does not work.....

My experience of this lens is that it can be problematic regarding focus on digital M cameras. I have had 3 and my current (which is a late E46 (not Apo) version is fine but it has a very different physical construction from the earlier versions like yours. There have been threads about focus problems with this lens in the past though, and it can be difficult to fix them, which has something to do with their construction if I remember correctly (it is not as simple as re-shimming the lens head placement or adjusting the RF cam's positioning unfortunately). The lens should work fine on the TL2 though, because your are not using the rf cam and are seeing the focus visually. All that said, it is a great lens and highly capable despite its design age. Given that they are not overly expensive for a Leica lens, if it works well on the TL2 I would keep it for use on the TL2 and accept that on the M8 it will not work.

[BrianS]

When you stated "The rangefinder does not work": do you mean the rangefinder image is not moving at all when you focus the lens, or that the actual focus and the Rangefinder do not agree on the distance? This would be two different problems with different solutions. If the RF moves, but the image is out-of-focus, the optics need to be adjusted with respect to the Cam on the lens. If the RF cam is not  engaging the RF mechanism of the camera- this is very different.

[Dopaco]

Am 28.3.2021 um 17:06 schrieb BrianS:

When you stated "The rangefinder does not work": do you mean the rangefinder image is not moving at all when you focus the lens, or that the actual focus and the Rangefinder do not agree on the distance? This would be two different problems with different solutions. If the RF moves, but the image is out-of-focus, the optics need to be adjusted with respect to the Cam on the lens. If the RF cam is not  engaging the RF mechanism of the camera- this is very different.

The rangefinder image does not move at all when you focus on the lens.

As a picture is worth a thousand words, I am in it:

Closest focusing distance of the Tele-Elmar-135-f4 lens (1.50 meters)

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What is seen by the rangefinder viewer

 

Since the distance (1.5 m) is within the focus range of the lens, the M8 photo will be in focus. (this is the result)

 

As you can see, the focus in the distances established in the objective seem correct but in Leica M8 and with this model of objective the rangefinder does not work and doing it for distances is not operative at infinite distances the image will always be in focus but without any help and by eye.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Dopaco

[BrianS]

It's difficult to tell from photographs, and not holding the lens: BUT, the RF "Tongue" style Cam of the Black 135/4 looks like it is farther to the interior of the lens, is farther from the M-Mount compared with the lens that does work. It is possible that the RF Cam follower of the camera is going underneath it. I had this happen using a lens with my Leica before. You might want to use a marker to indicate the center of the RF Cam on the outside of each lens, make sure both are coming to the same spot on the camera, I would use a Silver Sharpie, or something similar, to indicate the position of the cam on the lens. If both centers come to the same spot: either the Wheel of the camera is slipping beneath the Cam, OR something is causing the cam to freeze once it is on the camera. The optical barrel probably unscrews from the focus mount on this lens, as it does on my 9cm F2 Summicron. If it does, you might be able to put the focus mount on the camera and see what is going on.

Edited March 29, 2021 by BrianS

[Dopaco]

Am 28.3.2021 um 16:10 schrieb pgk:

My experience of this lens is that it can be problematic regarding focus on digital M cameras. I have had 3 and my current (which is a late E46 (not Apo) version is fine but it has a very different physical construction from the earlier versions like yours. There have been threads about focus problems with this lens in the past though, and it can be difficult to fix them, which has something to do with their construction if I remember correctly (it is not as simple as re-shimming the lens head placement or adjusting the RF cam's positioning unfortunately). The lens should work fine on the TL2 though, because your are not using the rf cam and are seeing the focus visually. All that said, it is a great lens and highly capable despite its design age. Given that they are not overly expensive for a Leica lens, if it works well on the TL2 I would keep it for use on the TL2 and accept that on the M8 it will not work.

@pgk

I think the version before Apo is the one you have and the one I have, from what I read in this version they released 2 models whose difference is in the E39 with a hood and the E46 similar to the Apo.

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Removing the Visoflex head is very sealed so it is not easy to remove and I don't want to force it, I have also bought this Lens for Leica TL2 which is where it works well.

I'll accept that it won't work on the M8, if I want to take a picture with the M8, I have the old silver 135, which does work on the M8.

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by Dopaco

[pgk]

9 minutes ago, Dopaco said:

I think the version before Apo is the one you have and the one I have, from what I read in this version they released 2 models whose difference is in the E39 with a hood and the E46 similar to the Apo.

See: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/135mm_f/4_Tele-Elmar and yes I have the E46 version with the integral hood which is similar to the App version in design. Its the E39 versions like yours which sometimes can be problematic. They are a relatively cheap lens (by Leica standards) which means that they are often uneconomic to have adjusted even if they can be sorted out correctly.

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Dopaco,

The longer silver chrome 135 F4 Elmar, which is the immediate predecessor of the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar, is pretty much the same lens as the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar, as far as optical performance is concerned. It is longer. But it is also lighter. It takes the same hood & the same filters. And it has a tripod mount built into the lens barrel.

For close focusing using the 135mmm F4 Elmar detachable lens head with a Visoflex I the 135mm F4 Elmar uses a 16495 focusing mount. To use the lens head with a Visoflex II, IIa or III it requires an additional 16466 adapter behind the 16495. This 16466 adapter also has its own tripod mount which is a good balance point when the 2 adapters are used with the lens head. The 16466 also allows the camera to rotate for vertical photos.

On a Bellows II the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar requires a Bellows adapter 16558. The 135mm F4 Elmar requires the same 16558 along with an additional adapter 16472.   

Best Regards,

Michael

Edited March 31, 2021 by Michael Geschlecht

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, Michael Geschlecht said:

Hello Dopaco,

The longer silver chrome 135 F4 Elmar, which is the immediate predecessor of the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar, is pretty much the same lens as the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar, as far as optical performance is concerned. It is longer. But it is also lighter. It takes the same hood & the same filters. And it has a tripod mount built into the lens barrel.

For close focusing using the 135mmm F4 Elmar detachable lens head with a Visoflex I the 135mm F4 Elmar uses a 16495 focusing mount. To use the lens head with a Visoflex II, IIa or III it requires an additional 16466 adapter behind the 16495. This 16466 adapter also has its own tripod mount which is a good balance point when the 2 adapters are used with the lens head. The 16466 also allows the camera to rotate for vertical photos.

On a Bellows II the 135mm F4 Tele-Elmar requires a Bellows adapter 16558. The 135mm F4 Elmar requires the same 16558 along with an additional adapter 16472.   

Best Regards,

Michael

Which part of this is the answer to the question in the original post? 

[Dopaco]

Hello friends:
Thank you all for your advice and comments.
Sometimes, when in doubt, the opinion of others helps to make decisions. In my case, the decision is confirmation that this lens will not be used on my M8.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Michael Geschlecht]

11 hours ago, jdlaing said:

Which part of this is the answer to the question in the original post? 

Hello JD,

Sometimes Threads wander here & there on the Leica Forum. I was simply trying to offer additional information so that the original writer of this Thread, or another person reading this in a similar situation, can better make decisions about what to do.

For example: Here we have a writer who has 2 different looking lenses which, in a number of instances, are equally usable for the same purposes. This might or might not have been self evident from handling them.

Also, adding a little data about adapters, etc. can sometimes save others some time looking.

Best Regards,

Michael