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Canon, Nikon, and Sony with Leica M glasses


Einst_Stein
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A friend asks my opinion on the three mirrorless cameras if shoot with Leica M glasses.

I only had some experience with Sony A7xx. It has been widely known that 50mm and wider would not work well on Sony.  I don't know about Sony's most recent released models but I do not see how Sony would change that. I have also seen some third party lens review, all show Leica glasses behave different on Sony compared to Leica M or SL/TL. 

Anyone can comment Canon or Nikon (mirrorless of course)?

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It really depends on a particular lens and camera body combination. I can only say that the EOS R5 is a lot better than the EOS R was which had a lot of smearing magenta shift towards the edges, seems to be fixed now.

The performance ranking generally goes something like this in the order of sensor stack thickness plus micro lens optimisation, AA filter, etc.:
Leica M10-R 0.9mm (UV and IR filtration layers have been merged together, so even better than past M cameras)
Leica SL2 1.2mm (same improvements as above)

Nikon Z 1.1mm
Canon R5/R6 (newer) 1.25mm
Sigma fp 1.3mm
Panasonic S 1.45mm
Canon R/RP (older) 1.6mm
Sony 2.0mm (although with the BSI sensors performance has been improved, I also found the original A7S to be the better than the rest so A7SIII might work well)

The degradation is most severe with 35mm or wider, still present on 50mm, while my 75mm f/1.4 functioned perfectly with basically everything. For some reason,  lenses without an aspheric element seem to perform a bit better. Symmetrical designs like Biogon are the most problematic.
You can find a lot of adapted rangefinder tests with Sony bodies on phillipreeve.net and a few threads here as well:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/298671-steve-huff-on-m-glass-with-nikon-z7/
https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/294081-m-lenses-on-eos-r/

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It only matters if it works or not. I had Sony A7III. There is no point to use Leica 50mm or wider on it.  So it is in the "not working" category. Just tried a friend's Nikon Z (sensor stack thickness 1.1?) , there is no comparison to  Leica SL (1.2?).   I have not tried Canon and new Sony.

I think there are more essential factors, Anyway, now the conclusion is simple. 

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I have used selection of M wides on Z7, these include WATE, Summilux 21, 28 and 35FLE plus Super Elmar 21mm, no noticeable problems, in fact Z7 IBIS provides extra dimension of sharp shooting of static subjects at low shutter speed. I also tried normal and moderate tele, 50, 75 and 90mm, as expected no issues.

Biggest conclusion out of this exercise is that native Z lenses are truly excellent, I mean much much better than F mount predecessors and as good as M lens would be on M camera.

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This is cheating, because the sensor is MF and therefore bigger than the sensor or film that the lens is designed for. But today, I stuck my M 50mm Lux ASPH on my Fuji GFX R (so around a 35mm equivalent lens) and went for a walk. What is below is an extreme crop of a photo taken around 50 feet from the object. No sharpening. I'd adjust the color balance a bit: too red right now. On uncropped shots, there is some smearing at the corners. 

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Edited by bags27
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6 hours ago, bags27 said:

This is cheating, because the sensor is MF and therefore bigger than the sensor or film that the lens is designed for. But today, I stuck my M 50mm Lux ASPH on my Fuji GFX R (so around a 35mm equivalent lens) and went for a walk. What is below is an extreme crop of a photo taken around 50 feet from the object. No sharpening. I'd adjust the color balance a bit: too red right now. On uncropped shots, there is some smearing at the corners. 

So that's what you've been up to😄!  Are you enjoying the world of MF, as well as your time with film Ken?

 

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1 hour ago, Boojay said:

So that's what you've been up to😄!  Are you enjoying the world of MF, as well as your time with film Ken?

 

Hi Jayne!

Yes, I shoot almost only film, mostly MF (Mamiya 7). I grew frustrated scanning the negs with the cropped CL, so bought a used Fuji "just for scanning" but now one thing's maybe leading to another....Hope all is well!

Ken

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I wear glasses. My Canon RP wears lenses. :)

I don't have any problems with 35 and 50 LTM/M mount lenses with it. LTM 21 mm lens gives color shifted corners. 

I use rangefinder lenses on Canon RP strictly due to compactness, because Canon makes none of RF lenses as compact. 

For 21 mm lens I have compact Vivitar lens in F mount.

So, I have no problems with non Leica lenses on Leica and non Canon lenses on Canon.

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On 3/21/2021 at 11:37 PM, Einst_Stein said:

Anyone can comment Canon or Nikon (mirrorless of course)?

Cannot comment on Canon or Nikon mirrorless because I do not use them.

I do, however, use Fuji mirrorless and use a FotoDiox adapter to mount my 90mm f/2 Summicron on my Fuji X mirrorless body instead of buying the excellent 90mm f/2 Fujinon lens.

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13 hours ago, bags27 said:

This is cheating, because the sensor is MF and therefore bigger than the sensor or film that the lens is designed for. But today, I stuck my M 50mm Lux ASPH on my Fuji GFX R (so around a 35mm equivalent lens) and went for a walk. What is below is an extreme crop of a photo taken around 50 feet from the object. No sharpening. I'd adjust the color balance a bit: too red right now. On uncropped shots, there is some smearing at the corners. 

Leica glasses work better than Fujifilm MF native glasses on this camera?

What's your motivation to buy Fujifilm MF?  

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5 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

Leica glasses work better than Fujifilm MF native glasses on this camera?

What's your motivation to buy Fujifilm MF?  

No, I didn't have any Fuji glass (I just bought a lens off ebay last night). I bought the camera for scanning MF film (I know that sounds crazy, but I got a good price), along with a Mamiya 645 macro lens. Having left Fuji for Leica primarily because of the vast, vast difference in UI, I'm now finding that I can, indeed, master to my needs its UI. But I shoot mainly film, so any difference in digital rendering, aside from scanning, isn't as important to me.

Edited by bags27
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On 3/22/2021 at 12:37 AM, Einst_Stein said:

A friend asks my opinion on the three mirrorless cameras if shoot with Leica M glasses.

I only had some experience with Sony A7xx. It has been widely known that 50mm and wider would not work well on Sony.  I don't know about Sony's most recent released models but I do not see how Sony would change that. I have also seen some third party lens review, all show Leica glasses behave different on Sony compared to Leica M or SL/TL. 

Anyone can comment Canon or Nikon (mirrorless of course)?

I am able to use 24 Lux and 35 FLE on the very thick Sony sensor at 61 MPS with good results. I am happy to swap these lenses between the M10 and A7rIV if I have too. I read all those "widely known that 50mm and wider would not work well on Sony" comments too and was very surprised how well both 24/35 worked when I tried it myself. My guess is that Leica M lenses Not designed for digital or really wide Leica M lenses are what most people refer to when repeating this "widely know" comment. Another commentor recently posted in this forum that he has good results with the 28 Lux on his Sony cameras too. If someone already owns a newer Sony camera ( A7rIII/A7rIV/A7sIII)  and some of the newer Leica M designs then I would certainly encourage them to try it. * I just happen to use a Shoten Leica M to Sony Emount adapter. 

Leica made SL camera sensor and micro lenses are the very best of course other than a rangefinder camera. 

FWIW, here is my first experiment with 24 Lux on the A7rIV

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1623372/0#15055183

Edited by LBJ2
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2 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I am able to use 24 Lux and 35 FLE on the very thick Sony sensor at 61 MPS with good results. I am happy to swap these lenses between the M10 and A7rIV if I have too. I read all those "widely known that 50mm and wider would not work well on Sony" comments too and was very surprised how well both 24/35 worked when I tried it myself. My guess is that Leica M lenses Not designed for digital or really wide Leica M lenses are what most people refer to when repeating this "widely know" comment. Another commentor recently posted in this forum that he has good results with the 28 Lux on his Sony cameras too. If someone already owns a newer Sony camera ( A7rIII/A7rIV/A7sIII)  and some of the newer Leica M designs then I would certainly encourage them to try it. * I just happen to use a Shoten Leica M to Sony Emount adapter. 

Leica made SL camera sensor and micro lenses are the very best of course other than a rangefinder camera. 

FWIW, here is my first experiment with 24 Lux on the A7rIV

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1623372/0#15055183

If you like it, it doesn't matter what others said.

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I went through this exercise not too long ago when I sold my M9-P and thought that I could get a Sony or Nikon and use an M adapter. I tried several bodies (A7RIII, A7S, Z6, Z7) and eventually I came to the conclusion that I will desire and eventually buy an M10 anyway. And then I bought an M10-P.

To do justice to M lenses, you need a Leica camera. With any other body, there will be compromises and the result will less than satisfactory. Why pay a lot for a Leica lens only to compromise?

On the other hand, if I had a Sony or Nikon and desired an M lens, I will buy a cheap Voigtlander lens.

 

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1 hour ago, rramesh said:

I went through this exercise not too long ago when I sold my M9-P and thought that I could get a Sony or Nikon and use an M adapter. I tried several bodies (A7RIII, A7S, Z6, Z7) and eventually I came to the conclusion that I will desire and eventually buy an M10 anyway. And then I bought an M10-P.

To do justice to M lenses, you need a Leica camera. With any other body, there will be compromises and the result will less than satisfactory. Why pay a lot for a Leica lens only to compromise?

On the other hand, if I had a Sony or Nikon and desired an M lens, I will buy a cheap Voigtlander lens.

 

I had reached similar conclusion. This is perhaps a nature of heavily SW/FW lens profile influenced digital  camera, though the sensor's covering layer also play an important role.

I have compared Leica glassed + Leica digital camera, Leica glasses + Sony digital camera, and Sony glassed + Sony digital camera. I see questionable points to purchase Leica glasses for Sony digital camera, only if it happened to find a cheap Leica glass.   

 

Edited by Einst_Stein
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I did some basic experimentation when I bought an A7III two years ago.  Below is a typical result with 35mm Summaron f2.8 - full image & 100% crop of bottom left.  Imported into LR Classic, 'Auto' clicked & exported as a 2480px jpg.  Haven't noticed any issues with that combination.  So far have not tried anything wider M-wise but (not unexpectedly) my 21-35mm Vario Elmar-R works fine.

 

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100% crop, as above.

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Keith (M) said:

100% crop, as above.

 

 

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People might be more interested in the comparison with Sony native lenses. And, native Leica combination. 

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