Help - Possible forgery

[Maykon85]

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Goodnight.
I am a Brazilian lost in this forum needing help.
I recently acquired a leica as an iiif, but perhaps it was naive. After a while I went to check the serial and saw that it was supposed to be of a different model from the iiif, being the ic. However, neither the technician who checked it nor the tutorials that point to the internet point to a forgery. Everything indicates that it is an original leica. Could anyone help me in that regard?
The serial is 560472. I am attaching images from the camera to help.

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Edited March 18, 2021 by Maykon85
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[alan mcfall]

Originally a Ic, later upgraded to a IIIf black dial.  A common upgrade, offered by Leitz. Often marketed to buyers new to Leica to buy in at a lower cost, and add the rangefinder and/or slow speeds later( IIc/IIIc). When the internal flash sync became available, it could be added also(IIIf).   Camera appears to be very nice. Feature upgrades were a big part of Leitz "system" history from 1930 to 1960.

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[Maykon85]

23 minutes ago, alan mcfall said:

Originally a Ic, later upgraded to a IIIf black dial.  A common upgrade, offered by Leitz. Often marketed to buyers new to Leica to buy in at a lower cost, and add the rangefinder and/or slow speeds later( IIc/IIIc). When the internal flash sync became available, it could be added also(IIIf).   Camera appears to be very nice. Feature upgrades were a big part of Leitz "system" history from 1930 to 1960.

 

Thank you very much for your reply. It brought me some peace again.

So, if i understand correctly, this is indeed a original leica ic with improvements from iiif. I couldn’t find any picture of na IC like mine on the internet. All have two connections at the top.

[adan]

Yes - to upgrade a Ic to IIIf status involves a major rebuilding - in stages - that definitely changes how the camera looks:

- replace Ic top plate with two accessory shoes ("connections") - with a whole new top plate that contains a built-in rangefinder/viewfinder (three windows on the front)

O   [___]   O

and one (1) accessory shoe. That makes it a IIc

- add additional slow-speed shutter dial on the front, plus internal gearing - that makes it a IIIc

- add internal flash-connection modification, larger top shutter dial,  and external sync control ring (around the top shutter dial). That makes it a IIIf.

Once your camera received the upgrades, they substantially changed how it looked.

Edited March 18, 2021 by adan

[willeica]

6 hours ago, adan said:

Yes - to upgrade a Ic to IIIf status involves a major rebuilding - in stages - that definitely changes how the camera looks:

- replace Ic top plate with two accessory shoes ("connections") - with a whole new top plate that contains a built-in rangefinder/viewfinder (three windows on the front)

O   [___]   O

and one (1) accessory shoe. That makes it a IIc

- add additional slow-speed shutter dial on the front, plus internal gearing - that makes it a IIIc

- add internal flash-connection modification, larger top shutter dial,  and external sync control ring (around the top shutter dial). That makes it a IIIf.

Once your camera received the upgrades, they substantially changed how it looked.

Spot on, Andy. These conversions were common, particularly in the early part of the 1950s. Some examples of what was done are below. With a Ic conversion ( in this case to a II Black Dial) a new top plate with a rangefinder was supplied. This would have carried a stamped Black Dial for flash sync.

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In the case of a conversion from a IIIc to a IIIf Black Dial, a plate with the sync numbers was screwed on, as is shown in the example below, as the camera would have already had a rangefinder housing.

William

 

[Anbaric]

Is there anything that tells us this is an upgrade, apart from the Ic serial number, or would a conversion of this type be indistinguishable from an original IIIf? The serial number is in a Ic block, but is contemporary with IIIf production (560000 was a IIIf). Upgrades were common, but I understand from previous posts that the usual serial number lists aren't 100% accurate.

[willeica]

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52 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Is there anything that tells us this is an upgrade, apart from the Ic serial number, or would a conversion of this type be indistinguishable from an original IIIf? The serial number is in a Ic block, but is contemporary with IIIf production (560000 was a IIIf). Upgrades were common, but I understand from previous posts that the usual serial number lists aren't 100% accurate.

If you check with the Leica Archives you will see the date on which the camera went back for an upgrade. Here are the records for the two cameras which I have shown above.

Model:                                                 Leica Ic

Serial number:                                    455660

Delivery date:                                     03.10.1949

Delivered an/to:                                 to Bauer to Düsseldorf (former representation)

Code word:  "OEINO & SBOOI " =  The Leica Ic was delivered together with an Elmar 3.5/5cm and a viewfinder 50mm chromed together.

 

Repair book:

 

1.

Repair number 20007/Entrance to the repair plant at the 14.01.1954

 

2nd.

Repair number: 15877/

Entrance to the factory for repair at 20.01.1962

 

Serial number circle 455001-460000 in the Collectors Guide = Leica Ic 1949/50

Serial number circle Leica Historica List 455001-460000 = Leica Ic 1949/50

Modell:                             Leica IIIc

Serial number:                485593

Ordner No.:                     22189

Delivered date:               11.10.1949

Delivered on/to:             to Leitz in Berlin

Code word “LOOPN”= with remunerated Elmar 3,5/5cm

 

Repair book:

“Repair-No.: 23428= entrance to the factory at 06.12.1956

 

Serial numbering circle Collectors Guide from 480001-495000= Leica IIIc (II) from 1949/ 1950

Serial numbering circle Leica Historica List from 460001-495000= Leica IIIc from (II)/ 1949/1950

The 'repair' entries would show the possible dates of the upgrades. In the case of the first camera, the camera went back twice, so it is either of the dates shown. With the second camera there is only one date.

I hope this makes sense. You are right that records from so long ago might not be fully accurate and no one should place 100% trust in any Leica record or list of serial numbers. This comes up at least once a month on this forum. Expecting absolute logical order and sequencing in the issue of Leica serial numbers from any generation is a waste of time. The OP's camera seems to be a genuine upgrade to a IIIf BD.

William

[zeitz]

49 minutes ago, willeica said:

If you check with the Leica Archives

William, how does one "check with the Leica Archives" and get a response?  None of my inquires to the Archives have ever been answered.

[Anbaric]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

I hope this makes sense. You are right that records from so long ago might not be fully accurate and no one should place 100% trust in any Leica record or list of serial numbers. This comes up at least once a month on this forum. Expecting absolute logical order and sequencing in the issue of Leica serial numbers from any generation is a waste of time. The OP's camera seems to be a genuine upgrade to a IIIf BD.

Thanks! Yes, that makes perfect sense. But I also wonder if there's anything about the camera itself that might be used to identify it as a conversion without reference to the records? In your nice example with the added sync number plate, it can't be anything else. But when an extensive rebuild would have been required, as here, are there perhaps less obvious indications of the upgrade process to look out for that would separate it from a vanilla IIIf? Or is a Ic -> IIIf conversion a IIIf in all but serial number?

[willeica]

4 hours ago, zeitz said:

William, how does one "check with the Leica Archives" and get a response?  None of my inquires to the Archives have ever been answered.

I have used various contacts in the past, but have not tried for any information recently. People are reporting getting responses from info@leica-camera.com recently. I have a large number of cameras where I could request details, but up to this I have restricted my requests to where I needed specific information for a specific purpose. Jim Lager tells me that they now have a look up system and what they will now provide you with is a micro-fiche of the actual original entry, but no more than that. Previously they looked up the details and did a mini report for you like the cases which I quoted.

51 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Thanks! Yes, that makes perfect sense. But I also wonder if there's anything about the camera itself that might be used to identify it as a conversion without reference to the records? In your nice example with the added sync number plate, it can't be anything else. But when an extensive rebuild would have been required, as here, are there perhaps less obvious indications of the upgrade process to look out for that would separate it from a vanilla IIIf? Or is a Ic -> IIIf conversion a IIIf in all but serial number?

It is possible to 'over think' all of this. There are things to look out for such as sharkskin covering (always originated with a c)  and the little film guide tab in the base (always originated with an f) and chrome pitting (definitely a c ), but really you cannot generalise about these things. The starting point is always the serial number and if it is before the date of the model, then it may be an upgrade. There is, however, no substitute for getting to know the different models and their features. For upgraded cameras I always use something like Ic/IIf BD, if that makes sense.

William

Edited March 18, 2021 by willeica

[zeitz]

3 hours ago, willeica said:

info@leica-camera.com

What happened to archiv@leica-camera.com?  And did they just delete all the requests that went to that e-mail box?  I have always suspected it depends who is asking.  If they don't know your name, they ignore your request.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, zeitz said:

What happened to archiv@leica-camera.com?  And did they just delete all the requests that went to that e-mail box?  I have always suspected it depends who is asking.  If they don't know your name, they ignore your request.

There have been a lot of issues at the Leica Archives over the past 3 years. I have put in requests to that address which have not been responded to. I suggest that you should try the one I have given above. I am aware of others who have received replies from that one recently. I would like to find out more about the many Leicas which I have, but, barring an issue arising, I am in no particular hurry to get the information. Most times when you get a response it does not tell you a lot you could not have pretty well guessed already, apart from the name of the original dealer. You will never get information on previous owners or anything like that.

William

[Pyrogallol]

On 3/18/2021 at 6:02 PM, willeica said:

I have used various contacts in the past, but have not tried for any information recently. People are reporting getting responses from info@leica-camera.com recently. I have a large number of cameras where I could request details, but up to this I have restricted my requests to where I needed specific information for a specific purpose. Jim Lager tells me that they now have a look up system and what they will now provide you with is a micro-fiche of the actual original entry, but no more than that. Previously they looked up the details and did a mini report for you like the cases which I quoted.

It is possible to 'over think' all of this. There are things to look out for such as sharkskin covering (always originated with a c)  and the little film guide tab in the base (always originated with an f) and chrome pitting (definitely a c ), but really you cannot generalise about these things. The starting point is always the serial number and if it is before the date of the model, then it may be an upgrade. There is, however, no substitute for getting to know the different models and their features. For upgraded cameras I always use something like Ic/IIf BD, if that makes sense.

William

Thanks for the address of info@leica-camera.com

I just got a quick response from them about my new wartime 111c, which they tell me was delivered on 1-4-41, but they cannot tell me where it went to or to whom. It also was not recorded as being serviced or repaired.

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[Pyrogallol]

I sent the serial numbers of two more war time cameras and lenses to info@leica-camera.com last Sunday and got a reply today, Tuesday, from peter.brieger@leica-camera.com giving me the delivery dates and that one body went to Ingolstadt, no repair records on any of them. Very quick response.

[derleicaman]

Ingolstadt. Interesting, just outside Munich. The only thing I know that Ingolstadt is known for is Audi. Their main factory is there. During the war it was Auto Union. Of course, they were not making cars during the war.

[Anbaric]

There's an airbase near there that dates back to the 1930s. Presumably they bought Leicas, and not all have military markings or are on the usual lists.

[Al Brown]

On 9/7/2021 at 4:14 PM, Pyrogallol said:

I sent the serial numbers of two more war time cameras and lenses to info@leica-camera.com last Sunday and got a reply today, Tuesday, from peter.brieger@leica-camera.com giving me the delivery dates and that one body went to Ingolstadt, no repair records on any of them. Very quick response.

I can add my experience which matches yours - same email, same Mr. Brieger responding in (all available) detail to my requests for archives on my Barnacks. Very pleased and positively surprised to be offered such incredible historic data and such fantastic service from Wetzlar.