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I had a colleague who deducted her Rolex as a business expense because she used it to take pulses. There's no doubt that there are many similar abuses out there. But I cannot say that I've never taken a personal photo with my practice's camera (but it usually stays in the OR and is used as it's intended). We (physicians) tend to look for tax deductions because despite our high level of pay, we get treated as business but are not allowed to apply business standards to many of our tax situations. Specifically, how bad debt is treated. If a merchant is stiffed for a bill or has inventory stolen, that can be treated as a business loss; not true for medical services. We also do not get tax-credit for the thousands of dollars of free care and charity work we do. So I'd give Vinay a break on this one.

 

Cheers,

Henry

 

Blast! Now you've got me wishing I'd deducted the bloody M8. (NB "bloody" in the colloquial usage here, I doubt it's well-sealed enough to stand actual spatter ;) )

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WHY. You can chimp till the cows come home. Sorry Jaap but you know how much i hate this limited stuff. I use this daily in everything i shoot, I have yet in 10 months reached for something else and i shoot all kinds of different stuff. The only limits are between the ears. Okay i said it.:D

 

Hehe - You know I agree with that for almost everything - still, if I want to take a quick shot in the office, out comes the 10D, Tamron Macro 90 and Sigma ringflash.... I drill instead of chimp there....

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Hehe - You know I agree with that for almost everything - still, if I want to take a quick shot in the office, out comes the 10D, Tamron Macro 90 and Sigma ringflash.... I drill instead of chimp there....

 

Too funny. LOL

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Walt--not to take you to task, but:

You're right, we don't know whether we are a good sample. Thus neither you nor I can make generalizations that the camera is or is not reliable based on what we do or don't see here.

 

When Sean Reid did his survey of people who had M8 camera problems (admittedly non-scientific and with self-selecting respondents), he was surprised at how low the problem rate was, under 10% as I recall--and that was with the early cameras.

 

--HC

 

Hi Howard,

 

Actually, I was surprised that the failure rate was as high as it was. The sample size was about 140, if I recall, and they were self selecting (by necessity). Otherwise, the methodology was fine. Ideally, one would poll M8 owners at random but that's logistically almost impossible.

 

Since that survey was done, there have been firmware updates and, anecdotally, I seem to be seeing fewer posts from people whose cameras have frozen up and stayed frozen. I myself had one M8 fail but the replacement has been fine so far. So, improvement to the firmware code may have improved reliability (making it much harder to crash the computer, so to speak).

 

Walt seems to have had a much worse experience with these cameras than I have. I still find the M8 to be, for my purposes, the best digital camera I've ever used. I absolutely love it.

 

I've had no problems with the shutter release action. The frame lines are set for .7 meters except for the 90 lines which are set to 1 M. There's an argument for that but I would much prefer that they be set for 1-2 meters.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Carsten-

 

Yes, it took a long time for photography to become instinctive for me, and I'm still thinking and learning about it. But until now this process has never been about cameras that lock up, have inaccurate framelines, sticky shutter releases, won't start up, won't turn off, etc. And I'd rather it not be. I'm sure I could get used to taking photographs with a bicycle pump eventually.

 

Walt

 

I have to say Walt reading your experiences with the M8 that I feel very fortunate to not have had any problems with mine. In your shoes I would have been back to Canon long ago. I never really warmed to the Canon's ergonomics but I never had an problems with them. So far my experience with the M8 has been the same. Though reading posts about users who are on their 3rd body make me very nervous.

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Hank and Sean,

 

I'd much prefer to muddle through with two half-bonkered M8 bodies than use Canon SLRs. I don't like SLRs altogether and I find the creamy-smooth Canon images very difficult to print for my work. I'm sure their images have a place in the world, just not my world. So, I agree with Sean, the M8 is my favorite digital camera, which isn't actually saying much in my case.

 

I have two other very good digital cameras, the Sony DSC W100 and the GR-D, the latter recently purchased. These make the M8 problems more tolerable.

 

The Sony, with its paltry 2meg JPEGs, is a remarkably good piece of work and I routinely print 16 x 20 from it. I've been using it for almost two years. The dynamic range is slightly limited compared to the M8, so it requires careful exposure and careful workflow. It is also not a low-light camera. The sharpness, detail and elegant gray scale are very, very good. I am having 10 prints in a S.F. Camerawork show this October. Five are old photographs (film Ms and Tri-X), five new ones. Of the five new ones, three are from the M8, two from the Sony. The Sony prints fit right in.

 

The GR-D is another matter--very Tri-X-like gray scale, but the files can get ugly pretty quickly in low light or with underexposure. In fact, the camera metering routinely underexposes, and now that I've learned that I'm beginning to get better results. As a shooting experience (ergonomics, speed, ease of use) the GR-D is the hands down winner of the three cameras I'm using. I wish the M8 were as well designed and well made.

 

On the M8 itself, I'll stay with it because I like it and particularly like the 28/2.0. The Sony is an excellent alternative, except in low light. It should be pointed out that those who "haven't had any trouble" with their M8s are saying nothing more than that their cameras have lasted 9 months, at most. This isn't much of an accomplishment in the scheme of things. People are somehow assuming that the camera will get better and better with age. I can imagine it might get worse and worse. Firmware will not be a corrective for basic construction faults.

 

Below is a link to photographs from the three cameras. I've just put 45 new images on the site, many from the M8 and Sony.

 

Walt

 

Walt Odets Photography Home

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Well I respect all the opinions here and feel that the original thread has been lost. I have ordered an M8 and will post my impressions and photos as they evolve.

greg

 

I guess I got here too late to offer a useful suggestion, but given the circumstances of your photography (being at some distance from the subject but needing to capture detail), I'd probably lean toward an SLR with good telephoto lenses, like a Nikon or Canon.

 

That's just not an optimal situation for any rangefinder.

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I'd much prefer to muddle through with two half-bonkered M8 bodies than use Canon SLRs. I don't like SLRs altogether and I find the creamy-smooth Canon images very difficult to print for my work.

 

Beautiful work Walt. Thanks for the link. I agree with you on the DSLR to M8 comparison but in the end I'll take a camera that can take pictures, even one I don't like, to one that is broken. If I can't have the tool I want I'll use the one I can get.

 

For me the M8 is far and away the best digital camera out there in terms of ergonomics (I am very happy with the IQ as well) but as you say with digital the bar is not set very high on the ergonomics front. At least not if your idea of heaven is a film M.

 

I'm happy I haven't had a problem (RF spot on, shutter not a problem once you get used to its staged release) and I hope it continues that way. I really like working with this camera and it would be painful to have to go back to a DSLR for the type of work that the M8 is suited for. There are no public statistics that would reveal how problematic the M8 is compared to other cameras but I'm hoping that with future models we will hear less horror stories.

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{snipped} It should be pointed out that those who "haven't had any trouble" with their M8s are saying nothing more than that their cameras have lasted 9 months, at most. This isn't much of an accomplishment in the scheme of things. People are somehow assuming that the camera will get better and better with age. I can imagine it might get worse and worse. Firmware will not be a corrective for basic construction faults.

 

{snipped}

 

Walt, beautiful work. Thanks for that link!

 

To your point; yes, it's true mechanical problems will get worse. But I think I'm safe in saying that most of the problems with the M8 are not mechanical--it's very similar to my other M cameras--but electronic and computational.

 

So insofar as the M8 is a computer (and it is), performance tends to get much better with time. Electronic upgrades and, yes, firmware fixes really do change how reliable the camera will be to use over the long term.

 

The first 3 months of any new computer product are always the worst, as bugs and edge use cases get reworked and finally solved.

 

Just seeing the new release of C1 and what the M8 high ISO files look like there is better than it was before.

 

That's saying something. So I'm happy that my M8 has been mostly mechanically just fine (the shutter is the main new mechanical component, so we'll see how that works, but it's only new to M cameras, and already has a great track record).

 

The computer stuff, though, can--and usually does--get better after release.

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Hank and Sean,

 

I'd much prefer to muddle through with two half-bonkered M8 bodies than use Canon SLRs. I don't like SLRs altogether and I find the creamy-smooth Canon images very difficult to print for my work. I'm sure their images have a place in the world, just not my world. So, I agree with Sean, the M8 is my favorite digital camera, which isn't actually saying much in my case.

 

I have two other very good digital cameras, the Sony DSC W100 and the GR-D, the latter recently purchased. These make the M8 problems more tolerable.

 

The Sony, with its paltry 2meg JPEGs, is a remarkably good piece of work and I routinely print 16 x 20 from it. I've been using it for almost two years. The dynamic range is slightly limited compared to the M8, so it requires careful exposure and careful workflow. It is also not a low-light camera. The sharpness, detail and elegant gray scale are very, very good. I am having 10 prints in a S.F. Camerawork show this October. Five are old photographs (film Ms and Tri-X), five new ones. Of the five new ones, three are from the M8, two from the Sony. The Sony prints fit right in.

 

The GR-D is another matter--very Tri-X-like gray scale, but the files can get ugly pretty quickly in low light or with underexposure. In fact, the camera metering routinely underexposes, and now that I've learned that I'm beginning to get better results. As a shooting experience (ergonomics, speed, ease of use) the GR-D is the hands down winner of the three cameras I'm using. I wish the M8 were as well designed and well made.

 

On the M8 itself, I'll stay with it because I like it and particularly like the 28/2.0. The Sony is an excellent alternative, except in low light. It should be pointed out that those who "haven't had any trouble" with their M8s are saying nothing more than that their cameras have lasted 9 months, at most. This isn't much of an accomplishment in the scheme of things. People are somehow assuming that the camera will get better and better with age. I can imagine it might get worse and worse. Firmware will not be a corrective for basic construction faults.

 

Below is a link to photographs from the three cameras. I've just put 45 new images on the site, many from the M8 and Sony.

 

Walt

 

Walt Odets Photography Home

 

Hi Walt,

 

The Ricoh GX100 is going to be very interesting for you. I may have the review up tonight. Ergonomics are essentially identical to the GR, which is to say, quite good but (in my mind) nowhere near as good as the M8. We talked about this once before in a thread. I still think nothing beats focus ring, aperture ring and shutter speed dial. One of these days, Leica may actually getting around to implementing the ISO/EV control improvements I've discussed with them.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Greg,

As a former medical photographer, I'd have to say the M8 is one of the most unsuitable cameras I can think of for that application.

 

Larry

 

I agree with Larry. Even though you ruled out macro, you still must need some "close-ish" photos, yes? Working conveniently at anything less than three feet is impossible for the vast majority of "M" lenses. The 75mm Summicron does a fair job closer than 3' but I wouldn't ever say that the M8 is really suited for medical photos. (Yes, I used to own a Visoflex too but let's get serious here.)

 

Also, be aware of a significant ramp-up period as you learn everything concerning the processing of RAW files, color management with digital photography, printer driver issues, etc., etc. There's a lot to learn if the M8 is your first "serious" digital camera.

 

I bought the M8 last November after decades of using Leica's other M platforms. I am irretriveably adicted to the M's form factor; the M8 was almost a slam-dunk for me, given the rapid rate at which good film processing is going away. I've not been happy with all the workflow I've had to learn without any assistance or guidance from the camera's manufacturer. Yes, the Leica optics are special. However, even the most opinionated Leica maniacs (myself included) are foolish if we don't recognize that Canon, Nikon and Pentax also offer some good glass on their digi-cams too.

 

-g

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All, thanks for the comments on the work. And yes, Sean, I've been waiting for that GX-100 review. I have a little Voigtlander 28/35 mini finder ready to go. With the GRD and the 28mm FOV you have to shave and use breath freshener--you're really on top of the subject.

 

Walt

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All, thanks for the comments on the work. And yes, Sean, I've been waiting for that GX-100 review. I have a little Voigtlander 28/35 mini finder ready to go. With the GRD and the 28mm FOV you have to shave and use breath freshener--you're really on top of the subject.

 

Walt

 

Yes, and sometimes just the field of view is just all wrong. When you get to 50 (EFOV) with the GX, you can use the little CV 50 finder which has a 1.0X mag. I just finished the distortion samples so it may be up late tonight.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

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Whereas I am a great enthusiast for the M8 and I am enjoying using more than any other camera for the last 20+ years (my Contax 139Q + V-S was the last new camera I enjoyed this much), I don't think a rangefinder is a great tool for medical/dental photography. It would be like taking a camel into a horse race. A DSLR is a near perfect tool for this. I would go for a Sony Alpha 100 with a Zeiss zoom lens and a ring flash. You could get the whole lot for about GBP 1,000. Sorry guys but it's horses (or camels) for courses.

 

Wilson

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I'm with Wilson and the others that are pointing you towards an DSLR for what is essentially a Macro application. Ring flash is a good suggestion. There's lot's to choose from. Get the M8 for yourself and buy a cheap DSLR for the medical stuff. It will cost less then an extra Leica lens.

 

If you must use the M8 try the 90/4 macro. I use it for product shots on occasion -it's I think the only Leica lens optimized for close in work.

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