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Guest Walt

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Walt--not to take you to task, but:

You're right, we don't know whether we are a good sample. Thus neither you nor I can make generalizations that the camera is or is not reliable based on what we do or don't see here.

 

When Sean Reid did his survey of people who had M8 camera problems (admittedly non-scientific and with self-selecting respondents), he was surprised at how low the problem rate was, under 10% as I recall--and that was with the early cameras.

 

I agree that we can't generalize that most of the problems were with the early cameras, but it is true that the forum isn't developing a new thread of issues every day. On the other hand, that might just be because we're aware of the unfixed problems--AWB, high-ISO banding in some cases etc--so we just don't bother to list them any more.

 

As for the NY dealer's report, it's anecdotal. Certainly you're right that he doesn't know of people who have simply sent their cameras to NJ. But we don't know what may have colored his remarks to you; there is no reason to assume he was untruthful, but he might have been "reading the customer" and figuring that he should paint a black case for you, or on the other hand he might have figured that since you're a Leica customer, he should paint a rosier picture, lowballing the number of defectives.

 

Some of us may be more forgiving of the camera's warts than others. My feeling is that we're pretty much informed about progress, even if not directly. What we termed "Sudden Death Syndrome" has been virtually eliminated, for example, and we know that any camera that comes in for any repair receives the "T2 update" if it hasn't had it already. But whether the glass is half full or half empty is a matter of perspective.

 

It certainly is good, though, to hear from people like you who aren't full supporters of the camera but use it nonetheless.

 

 

Greg, I repeat: If you think a rangefinder is right for your needs, my opinion is that you won't regret purchasing an M8. On the other hand, since you've posted the question here, perhaps any of the other choices mentioned is better for you. But I agree with Walt that we need to ignore the "Leica mystique." You need to look at the camera for what it is and decide whether you're ready for it. Mystique is okay for collectors, but it doesn't take a picture.

 

--HC

Howard-

 

You post is, as is your habit, intelligent and sensible, and I thank you. Yes, we really don't know exactly what's going on here, but I have to find a lot of promise and then a lot of disappointment in this camera. I'd like a camera that just lets me take photographs and never think about. I've had to think *way too much* about it.

 

Good wishes,

Walt

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Walt, I am not trying to poke at your observations, but could it not be that it took a long time to get to the point of not thinking when you initially learned photography with a Leica M? I think it is fair to give it some more time. I am almost certain that with time this camera too will become instinctive in use.

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Gentlemen-it is with great interest that I continue to read these posts; am sure that only Leica knows the exact magnitude of the M8 problems; it appears that either there are many problems(absolute) or that the owners with problems(relative) are most prominent; daily, there are posts that discuss some issue with the M8

I have not given up on the M8 and look forward to futher posts

greg

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Guest tummydoc
Greg,

 

If you follow Vinay's advice and deduct it from your taxes for using it personally, then the rest of us get to pay for it!

 

What a wonderful country (with the possible exception of those who give such advice).

 

Jerry Pfile (Official US taxpayer)

 

If one reaches far enough one can always find something over which to feign righteous indignation, for lack of anything more substantive to say and an unwillingness to simply remain silent

 

Having lived in several other countries, I have no compassion whatsoever for anyone who complains about US taxation. Those who've never worked elsewhere don't know the extent of their good fortune.

 

I did not advise him to deduct it. I simply deduced, from the absurdity of leaving a $5000 M8 lie about a medical office, that he planned to purchase it as a business expenditure, and that "non-macro medical photography" was a contrived justification. Whereupon I suggested it would be safer to simply deduct it but not actually risk keeping it at the practise. Incidentally, although you've no right to the knowledge, I purchased my M8 with personal funds, not as a business expense.

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Guest Walt
Walt, I am not trying to poke at your observations, but could it not be that it took a long time to get to the point of not thinking when you initially learned photography with a Leica M? I think it is fair to give it some more time. I am almost certain that with time this camera too will become instinctive in use.

Carsten-

 

Yes, it took a long time for photography to become instinctive for me, and I'm still thinking and learning about it. But until now this process has never been about cameras that lock up, have inaccurate framelines, sticky shutter releases, won't start up, won't turn off, etc. And I'd rather it not be. I'm sure I could get used to taking photographs with a bicycle pump eventually.

 

Walt

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I'm sure I could get used to taking photographs with a bicycle pump eventually.

<grin> Be careful what you wish for, Walt!

 

You know, Leica offered a special 100-piece limited-edition bicycle in Germany last year, the "Leica birdy." (Believe it or not, the 'birdy' part isn't Leica's doing, but the manufacturer's model designation. Why do we keep thinking we understand these people?

)

 

Carsten--know anybody with one of these they want to sell? Might help me work off some excess poundage. And I'd love to be able to ask some schönes Fräulein if she'd like to see my birdy.

 

--HC

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Guest Walt

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<grin> Be careful what you wish for, Walt!

 

You know, Leica offered a special 100-piece limited-edition bicycle in Germany last year, the "Leica birdy." (Believe it or not, the 'birdy' part isn't Leica's doing, but the manufacturer's model designation. Why do we keep thinking we understand these people?

)

 

Carsten--know anybody with one of these they want to sell? Might help me work off some excess poundage. And I'd love to be able to ask some schönes Fräulein if she'd like to see my birdy.

 

--HC

Howard,

 

If you manage to buy one of these, maybe you'd sell me just the pump. I'll need it by then.

 

Walt

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Vinay,

 

"Buy it through your practise and tell the IRS you use it for medical photography, then leave it at home."

 

You are correct. You did not advise him to, you TOLD him to. You may gain from reading your above quote again. Now perhaps you wished him to note his purchase to the IRS for purposes other than a tax deduction. Ya sure Vinay.

 

"...feigned rightous indignation". Unless 'feigned' means something besides "not genuine", you could not possibly be more incorrect as to the character of my indignation.

 

But you'll probably try to be if your previous history is any guide.

 

Jerrry Pfile

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Hi Greg,

 

interesting, apart from the discussion concerning the robustness of the machine itself, actually what kind of medical photography are you going to do?

 

FY

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Carsten-

 

Yes, it took a long time for photography to become instinctive for me, and I'm still thinking and learning about it. But until now this process has never been about cameras that lock up, have inaccurate framelines, sticky shutter releases, won't start up, won't turn off, etc. And I'd rather it not be. I'm sure I could get used to taking photographs with a bicycle pump eventually.

 

Walt

 

The lockups, sticky shutter release, and various hardware problems are things that Leica can fix, or will once they understand the problem. The shutter can be tuned to your preference, which I will also let Leica do with mine at some point, it is also a little sticky.

 

The inaccurate framelines there is no solution for yet, that is true. There was a rumour at some point that Leica would offer an alternative frameset for those who prefer accuracy far as opposed to close. I hope this is true, and I would personally do it in a second.

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Guest guy_mancuso
If one reaches far enough one can always find something over which to feign righteous indignation, for lack of anything more substantive to say and an unwillingness to simply remain silent

 

Having lived in several other countries, I have no compassion whatsoever for anyone who complains about US taxation. Those who've never worked elsewhere don't know the extent of their good fortune.

 

I did not advise him to deduct it. I simply deduced, from the absurdity of leaving a $5000 M8 lie about a medical office, that he planned to purchase it as a business expenditure, and that "non-macro medical photography" was a contrived justification. Whereupon I suggested it would be safer to simply deduct it but not actually risk keeping it at the practise. Incidentally, although you've no right to the knowledge, I purchased my M8 with personal funds, not as a business expense.

 

 

Point taken BUT some folks really do need the tax break. I live and die with section 179. Without that my tax bill would be nuts , of course it truly is a business expense for me and I use the gear a lot because that is my business but it really does help me come April. As a doctor which in normal cases they do bring home a nice income and if he can purchase this and get a tax break why not . If it sits than that is his issue and it does do macro , maybe not as refined as a DSLR but it can still get done. Hey if I could write off going to the bathroom i would. LOL

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Hi Greg,

 

interesting, apart from the discussion concerning the robustness of the machine itself, actually what kind of medical photography are you going to do?

 

FY

I am an academic professor of surgery and as such I must prepare lectures with numerous images of clinical situations in surgery. No real need for macro since we must keep a safe distance from the field to avoid contamination. I have used and will continue to use various cameras for my academic work. I do not deduct anything since I am a salaried employee.

I do require a reliable camera for this work and that is my quandry with the M8. Will it be reliable?

My father was an accomplished rangefinder user and I grew up with the concept and feel totally comfortable with an rf.

greg

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I would think the uncertain framing and limited flash control would half-disqualify the M8 from this kind of work. A DSLR, a sophisticated flash and a standard zoom seem more practical.

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Guest guy_mancuso

WHY. You can chimp till the cows come home. Sorry Jaap but you know how much i hate this limited stuff. I use this daily in everything i shoot, I have yet in 10 months reached for something else and i shoot all kinds of different stuff. The only limits are between the ears. Okay i said it.

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Guest tummydoc
Vinay,

 

"Buy it through your practise and tell the IRS you use it for medical photography, then leave it at home."

 

You are correct. You did not advise him to, you TOLD him to.

 

I apologise that I did not phrase my comments in such a way that you could understand the overall gist of my message. OTOH I shouldn't apologise too profusely, after all I did give you an opportunity to climb aboard your soap-box and vent your off-topic rant

 

Unless 'feigned' means something besides "not genuine", you could not possibly be more incorrect as to the character of my indignation.

 

I meant it only as a courtesy, giving you the the benefit of doubt.

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I had a colleague who deducted her Rolex as a business expense because she used it to take pulses. There's no doubt that there are many similar abuses out there. But I cannot say that I've never taken a personal photo with my practice's camera (but it usually stays in the OR and is used as it's intended). We (physicians) tend to look for tax deductions because despite our high level of pay, we get treated as business but are not allowed to apply business standards to many of our tax situations. Specifically, how bad debt is treated. If a merchant is stiffed for a bill or has inventory stolen, that can be treated as a business loss; not true for medical services. We also do not get tax-credit for the thousands of dollars of free care and charity work we do. So I'd give Vinay a break on this one.

 

Cheers,

Henry

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This excellent forum is a great place for m8 owners to exchange information and often vent frustrations. I'd bet that people who are having problems with a very expensive camera are FAR more likely to post than those who are not...I know I would be.

 

I suppose if you talk to a Toyota mechanic they might tell you that Toyotas are crap, because they see broken ones all day!

 

Certainly there have been issues with the M8, as there was with the R8. I think it's safe to say that early adopters in Leica world will be eaten as a sacrifice to the photo gods. Just like with the R8, Leica has worked quickly to resolve the problems and I'll bet an M8 you buy now is pretty well bullet proof.

 

My M8 is going on 1000+ photo's without a problem...Heck, I havent even seen that wierd black and white strips thing after the last firmwear update (though I'd swear it wakes up a little slower...that may be intentional)

 

To keep it all in perspective, I've had TWO hosed Canon's right out of the box, a Nikon D200 that would not focus properly,TWO high end Nikon lenses that would rack past infinity on autofocus (both the 17-55 and the 17-35 F2.8s), THREE jacked Contax G cameras...each with auto focus failures that I had no way of predicting until the negs were developed, TWO CV 50mm Skopar lenses that either were totally wankered internally or had missing patches in the coating and light leaks in my Hasselblad backs that REALLY pissed me off.

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Guest tummydoc
Point taken BUT some folks really do need the tax break. I live and die with section 179. Without that my tax bill would be nuts , of course it truly is a business expense for me and I use the gear a lot because that is my business but it really does help me come April. As a doctor which in normal cases they do bring home a nice income and if he can purchase this and get a tax break why not . If it sits than that is his issue and it does do macro , maybe not as refined as a DSLR but it can still get done. Hey if I could write off going to the bathroom i would. LOL

 

Preaching to the choir Guy

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I had a colleague who deducted her Rolex as a business expense because she used it to take pulses. There's no doubt that there are many similar abuses out there. But I cannot say that I've never taken a personal photo with my practice's camera (but it usually stays in the OR and is used as it's intended). We (physicians) tend to look for tax deductions because despite our high level of pay, we get treated as business but are not allowed to apply business standards to many of our tax situations. Specifically, how bad debt is treated. If a merchant is stiffed for a bill or has inventory stolen, that can be treated as a business loss; not true for medical services. We also do not get tax-credit for the thousands of dollars of free care and charity work we do. So I'd give Vinay a break on this one.

 

Cheers,

Henry[/quote

 

I wanted to stay out of this but I just can't.

 

Those of you who advocate taking undeserved tax breaks don't seem to understand that cheating the government is cheating the rest of us who pay the taxes that you don't. The government only spends and force the rest of us to pay for that spending, like it or not. Those who cheat rob the rest of us. End of story

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