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Grainy bokeh - Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 2/50 ?


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Hi, there is a lively discussion of the 35 and 50 Leica Apos. This made me look how my Voigtländer Apo-Lanthar 2/50 behaves (M9 - f2) :

 

Crops :

 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/757807

Reminds me of some images that my wife asked me to write some code for. Cool- someone cited it for a patent granted 12 years after we wrote the paper.

Spherical aberration is smooth, focal length changes across the radius of the optic with either a positive or negative slope.

Aspherical optics- the focal length is not a constant across the optic, the slope changes from positive to negative slope- it "Wiggles back and forth".  It greatly reduces focus shift.

Edited by BrianS
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10 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

Looks like lens cellulitis. Maybe a very specialized plastic surgeon could help. 🙃

Well, looking on the bright side, I would say the Apo-Lanthar performs much better than my Nokton 1,2/35 asph- v1, which shows onion-rings.

A few more Lanthar samples (M9 - f 2).

Through the shop window :

 

 

Through the shop window, across the street :

 

 

 

 

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In any case much much better than onion rings, IMHO. I would likely not have noticed the bokeh cellulitis at all when looking at the overall picture. However, once you have ever seen this, you are addicted to look for this in every photo...

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Posted (edited)

It's obviously the optical engineer designing grain simulation into the lens. It gives the image much more texture, a film-like quality.

Pesky laws of Physics.

 

Edited by BrianS
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3 hours ago, Robert Blanko said:

In any case much much better than onion rings, IMHO. I would likely not have noticed the bokeh cellulitis at all when looking at the overall picture. However, once you have ever seen this, you are addicted to look for this in every photo...

Hi, it's like the first scratch on your new car. - You see it, when you are 20 metres away, not the beautiful new car ... ---

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50 minutes ago, BrianS said:

It's obviously the optical engineer designing grain simulation into the lens. It gives the image much more texture, a film-like quality.

Pesky laws of Physics.

 

Hi, I am not so sure. We may see the limits, or the quality of polishing in lens manufacturing. And this problem may become even more difficult, when resolution goes up in the future.

I used the Lanthar on the low-res M9. What about the M10-R ?

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20 minutes ago, crony said:

Hi, it's like the first scratch on your new car. - You see it, when you are 20 metres away, not the beautiful new car ... ---

This case is more like putting your car under UV light and looking for blemishes in the paint.

 

(I tried to link to an image on imgbb.com, but the forum software seems to have eliminated it)

We're getting near the limit of resolution of optics as it is. 50MPixels on a 24mmx36mm sensor outresolves most lenses. It's diminishing returns, and end up with a large file that you can pixel-peep every defect in an image. The APO-Summicron was introduced with the M Monochrom, 18MPixels. I have the APO-Lanthar on one now, which is why I bought it. I really see no reason to upgrade the M9 or M Monochrom until they stop working and cannot b repaired.

Edited by BrianS
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5 hours ago, BrianS said:

This case is more like putting your car under UV light and looking for blemishes in the paint.

 

(I tried to link to an image on imgbb.com, but the forum software seems to have eliminated it)

We're getting near the limit of resolution of optics as it is. 50MPixels on a 24mmx36mm sensor outresolves most lenses. It's diminishing returns, and end up with a large file that you can pixel-peep every defect in an image. The APO-Summicron was introduced with the M Monochrom, 18MPixels. I have the APO-Lanthar on one now, which is why I bought it. I really see no reason to upgrade the M9 or M Monochrom until they stop working and cannot b repaired.

Hi, I agree, that many current lenses  won't support future high res sensors. Photography has changed from picture-taking to detail recording and scrutiny for some. 

In the past, one used one slide film/day on holidays as a "power user". The film was sent to KODAK for developing and framing. And then, the slides were shown on a big screen

using the Leica Pradovit. Everyone sat, and looked at the pictures. No one ever got up to read the seals on cars' number plates ... Those were the days ...

I have 2 M9s, one I bought new 10 years ago, the other one I bought refurbished last year. I shall use them as long as possible ... ---

Maybe, I am an old-iron man (not an old iron-man) ...🙂

 

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Hi, to conclude (M9- Lanthar f2) :

 

In the distance :

 

On the car, close by :

 

So, this is the worst I have so far. I can live with that. The Apo-Lanthar is a good lens. - It is not perfect.

But if anyone here owns a perfect Leica M mount lens costing €1000 or less, let me know, please ... ( 😁 )

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  • 3 weeks later...

Thanks for posting samples of bokeh balls.

I know many people really dislike onion ring bokeh balls. I consider grainy bokeh balls as an improvement over that. Personally I think strong outlining of the bokeh balls is much worse than both since it's easily seen without pixel peeping. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hi, ... (M9 - f 2; crop, full picture) :

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The grainyness seems to show more with artificial light ... ---

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I am fine with that. At least the lens has its own character.

People will not zoom in and check the pixels like that, you do not have to be worried.

 

As I continue using the lens, the more I feel in love with it. So enjoyable to use.

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AFAIK what you're seeing in the 'grainy' bokeh balls is the surface of the ASPH in the CV. If you compare that to a purely spherical design that generally looks a lot smoother - presume that it is a lot easier polishing a spherical element. ASPH tend to be moulded don't they? Certainly in more consumer lenses with plastic moulded ASPH the grain is very extreme.

IMHO it's a lot better than onion rings but i believe the term 'buttery smooth' bokeh is the absence of both onion and grain. 

From what i can see and understand that the Leica APO process includes some different approaches to ASPH and the results from those lenses are better than the CV - i presume part of the cost difference would be down to this. 99% of people won't notice or care but those that do at least have an option.

My CV 50 finally turned up yesterday so i've been playing with it and it's a lovely lens but it's not IMHO Leica 50 APO level but price performance it is excellent. I've a 50 cron as well which I love the look from (smooth bokeh balls!) and plan on a comparison as soon as i have the time

cheers
Paul

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45 minutes ago, paulcurtis said:

AFAIK what you're seeing in the 'grainy' bokeh balls is the surface of the ASPH in the CV. If you compare that to a purely spherical design that generally looks a lot smoother - presume that it is a lot easier polishing a spherical element. ASPH tend to be moulded don't they? Certainly in more consumer lenses with plastic moulded ASPH the grain is very extreme.

IMHO it's a lot better than onion rings but i believe the term 'buttery smooth' bokeh is the absence of both onion and grain. 

From what i can see and understand that the Leica APO process includes some different approaches to ASPH and the results from those lenses are better than the CV - i presume part of the cost difference would be down to this. 99% of people won't notice or care but those that do at least have an option.

My CV 50 finally turned up yesterday so i've been playing with it and it's a lovely lens but it's not IMHO Leica 50 APO level but price performance it is excellent. I've a 50 cron as well which I love the look from (smooth bokeh balls!) and plan on a comparison as soon as i have the time

cheers
Paul

Hi, aspheric lenses can be pressed into shape, or they are made from blands (which were pressed) and then they are polished. The blands come in different precision classes

(smoother or less smooth), which require more, or less polishing. I found this in the catalogue of SCHOTT, a glass manufacturing company, belonging to the ZEISS group. ---

I do not like onion rings, as shown by my VOIGTLÄNDER Nokton 1,2/35 asph. v1. With the performance of my Lanthar 50 I am satisfied, also in comparison to my other

4 M mount 50s ... 

(I am too stingy to buy the Leica Apo ... --- )

 

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10 hours ago, paulcurtis said:

...My CV 50 finally turned up yesterday so i've been playing with it and it's a lovely lens but it's not IMHO Leica 50 APO level but price performance it is excellent. I've a 50 cron as well which I love the look from (smooth bokeh balls!) and plan on a comparison as soon as i have the time

cheers
Paul

That's great... look forward to reading your thoughts and comparison.

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