Wheres all the Fanfare over the 28 APO SC?

[jplomley]

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.....waited long enough, I expected a lot more fanfare from early adopters. Just look at the excitement over the M 35 APO, and barely a peep here about the 28. Has the L product line run it’s course? 

[Joakim]

Is it widely available yet? Here in Sweden it doesn't seem to be available from what I can tell.

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[scott kirkpatrick]

The 28 is just the fifth in the line of predictably outstanding SL Summicrons, while the 35 APO M (although rumored) came as a bit of a surprise.  I've been giving my 28 plenty of work,, and I got the first one to arrive at my store.  I don't know anyone who is trying to absorb both lenses at the same time.  Our two most enthusiastic adopters on this forum are both M fanatics, although one of them is using his M APO 35 on his SL2-S.

Edited March 10, 2021 by scott kirkpatrick

[Einst_Stein]

Perhaps Q?

[Stuart Richardson]

As great as it looks, it also does not have the superlative MTF of the 35mm APO. I suspect that Scott is correct, in that it was not quite as big of a surprise, nor has it been quite so stunningly impressive technically (at least on the charts...I have not tried one...). I bet that it is more appealing to the sorts of users who will just use it and appreciate how excellent it is, rather than post a ton about it. 28mm is a bit of a workhorse focal length...nothing too exciting, and since the 28mm SL does not have anything so earth-shattering about it in comparison to the other focal lengths (75 and 90mm APO were first and had groundbreaking performance, the 50mm was better even than the 50 APO M and cheaper to boot, the 35mm APO is the best 35mm lens ever made in terms of performance etc.). The 28mm is more just a really really good lens.

[jplomley]

12 minutes ago, Einst_Stein said:

Perhaps Q?

Very good point. Would love to see a  comparison of the Q2 vs. SL2/28 APO SC vs. M10-R/28 SC v.2 and 28 Lux. Not sure anyone actually has all this kit to compare.

[jplomley]

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1 minute ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As great as it looks, it also does not have the superlative MTF of the 35mm APO. I suspect that Scott is correct, in that it was not quite as big of a surprise, nor has it been quite so stunningly impressive technically (at least on the charts...I have not tried one...). I bet that it is more appealing to the sorts of users who will just use it and appreciate how excellent it is, rather than post a ton about it. 28mm is a bit of a workhorse focal length...nothing too exciting, and since the 28mm SL does not have anything so earth-shattering about it in comparison to the other focal lengths (75 and 90mm APO were first and had groundbreaking performance, the 50mm was better even than the 50 APO M and cheaper to boot, the 35mm APO is the best 35mm lens ever made in terms of performance etc.). The 28mm is more just a really really good lens.

Hope there is not a trend of diminishing performance with decreasing focal length that impacts the 24 mm and 21 mm. Given the performance of all the other focal lengths, its perplexing why the same effort would not have been put into the wide angles in order to differentiate from the competition.

[Stuart Richardson]

Honestly, it could just be field curvature done by design, which would mean that it is still super sharp, just not with a perfectly flat field. That is why I said I can't say for sure, since I have not tried it, but if you look at the MTF of both, the 35mm Summicron does look better. I doubt it was from lack of effort...Leica seems to make things as best as they can within their design constraints (which are generally pretty tough).

[jrp]

How does the 28mm render?

Fortunately we have a lot of choices with wide angle lenses.  Generally, autofocus is not so critical for wide angles, so the (in some cases faster) M lenses come into play.  And there are also some relatively affordable Sigma lenses like the 24mm f3.5 becoming available, with Panasonic lenses coming on stream slowly.

 

[caissa]

I would like to see a comparison of the Apo SL 28mm with the Sigma 1.4/28mm . Somehow I think the Ms cannot really compete because of size. (But they are still excellent and good enough for many occasions.)

Or a comparison with the old Contax 2.0/28mm and the Leica R 2.8/28 v2 .

I wonder how big is the gap of Apo. Or can it be neglected ?

 

But in the end it is not so important for me anymore. The freshness of a new lens is not so important anymore. It is now mainly about having more options. And the 16-35 is often a more desirable option (much more flexible in the field).

I use also an old pre-Asph M 28mm because it is so small and so close in IQ. Never felt the desire to update, even though the 16-35 is better. In 28mm there is enough “sharpness” from the beginning. The (Leica) colors are more important for most photos. And the perfect MTF (meaning a very flat plane of focus) are often not too useful in practical photography with wide angles.

Edited March 10, 2021 by caissa

[Stuart Richardson]

I will say, for my own use I bought a 24mm 3.5 Sigma. I am very impressed with it. It is very sharp across the frame even on the SL2, made of metal with very good build quality and attractive design, has no visible distortion of CA (likely corrected digitally), nice bokeh, focuses to 0.3m and costs 550 dollars. I can see going for Leica for the most important focal lengths, but some of the newer Sigma options are pretty impressive. I compared the Sigma to the 21mm Super Elmar M and the 25mm Biogon ZM, and the 550 dollar Sigma was the sharpest of all of them. The Super Elmar was slightly contrastier on center, but it was noticeably worse across the field. Right now on B and H, the plastic Super Elmar lens cap 65 dollars. So for the cost of 8 lens caps you can buy the Sigma lens, which is actually also 100g lighter, sharper, weather sealed, autofocus and comes with two lens caps and a hood. I am not sure what is going on with lens design these days, but all of the companies seem to be completely crushing it in comparison to their older lenses...it is increasingly hard to justify a five or ten year old Leica lens design over a brand new Sigma, Panasonic or Fuji. I know this thread is about the 28mm Summicron, but I just figure it is worth noting that some of the interest might be lost by the fact that there are so many spectacular lens options these days, and not all of them cost 5000 dollars.

[ZHNL]

1 minute ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I will say, for my own use I bought a 24mm 3.5 Sigma. I am very impressed with it. It is very sharp across the frame even on the SL2, made of metal with very good build quality and attractive design, has no visible distortion of CA (likely corrected digitally), nice bokeh, focuses to 0.3m and costs 550 dollars. I can see going for Leica for the most important focal lengths, but some of the newer Sigma options are pretty impressive. I compared the Sigma to the 21mm Super Elmar M and the 25mm Biogon ZM, and the 550 dollar Sigma was the sharpest of all of them. The Super Elmar was slightly contrastier on center, but it was noticeably worse across the field. Right now on B and H, the plastic Super Elmar lens cap 65 dollars. So for the cost of 8 lens caps you can buy the Sigma lens, which is actually also 100g lighter, sharper, weather sealed, autofocus and comes with two lens caps and a hood. I am not sure what is going on with lens design these days, but all of the companies seem to be completely crushing it in comparison to their older lenses...it is increasingly hard to justify a five or ten year old Leica lens design over a brand new Sigma, Panasonic or Fuji. I know this thread is about the 28mm Summicron, but I just figure it is worth noting that some of the interest might be lost by the fact that there are so many spectacular lens options these days, and not all of them cost 5000 dollars.

You should try 35mm and 65mm as well if you like 24mm. I am impressed. I dont think 35mm is as good as cron SL but it is more than enough at 1/10 of price and 1/3 size and weight. It has better bokeh than all M glass I have. (I don't think 35mm M glasses are famous for that though) 65mm is a really good one. I don't even know its flaw other than extreme corner need f4 to reach peak.  

[Slender]

20 hours ago, jplomley said:

Hope there is not a trend of diminishing performance with decreasing focal length that impacts the 24 mm and 21 mm. Given the performance of all the other focal lengths, its perplexing why the same effort would not have been put into the wide angles in order to differentiate from the competition.

Given Karbe's maniac approach to have lenses so good at f2.0 that diffraction kicks in at 2.8 or 4 🙄... well then no, they certainly are putting the best they have to offer out there.

And remember, the further you strech the "millimeters" aways from 40-50mm (longer, but especially more so when wider), the more complex/expensive it becomes to design a lens that litteraly grabs light from as wide a field it can (wide angle) across many glass elements...... or channel it straight over long distances and gaps of air and glass (tele lenses).

It's "easy" to do a decent 50 1.4.... it's gonna be tought making a great 21...f2. It will surely one of the most expensive prime in the range. (but dirt cheap compared to an M one lol)

[scott kirkpatrick]

28 minutes ago, Slender said:

Given Karbe's maniac approach to have lenses so good at f2.0 that diffraction kicks in at 2.8 or 4 🙄... well then no, they certainly are putting the best they have to offer out there.

And remember, the further you strech the "millimeters" aways from 40-50mm (longer, but especially more so when wider), the more complex/expensive it becomes to design a lens that litteraly grabs light from as wide a field it can (wide angle) across many glass elements...... or channel it straight over long distances and gaps of air and glass (tele lenses).

It's "easy" to do a decent 50 1.4.... it's gonna be tought making a great 21...f2. It will surely one of the most expensive prime in the range. (but dirt cheap compared to an M one lol)

Certainly there is no lack of effort put into the SL Summicrons.  I think it is safe to assume that with the glasses available to day, and the framework set out to build the lens in, these will be the best possible in a decade or so.  The family that was running out of steam in its wide angle lenses is the M Summilux line.  Leica was very proud to deliver a 21/1.4 for the first time about ten years ago, but it is vulnerable to all sorts of problems at the edges.  I think the SL Summicron, when it finally gets to us, will be an enormous advance.  At least it will provide a really interesting test of the current approach.

Edited March 11, 2021 by scott kirkpatrick

[jplomley]

I don't know, I have this nagging feeling the SL is not going to be around for the long haul. Lens roll out has been so agonizingly slow that any momentum they had with the initial launch of the SL 601 has been lost. There is a lot more competition now in the mirrorless market with lenses that are getting closer to the Leica optical and build standard for a fraction of the cost. So once the 21 and 24 mm are released, whats next? I suspect the slow lens launches were deliberate to keep some vague interest in the system, but even that will cease to exist within a year or so. Meanwhile, the M system seems to continuously evolve, which is somewhat ironic. M10M, M10-R, 35 APO, Noctiluxes for 50/75/90 etc.

[Einst_Stein]

1 hour ago, jplomley said:

I don't know, I have this nagging feeling the SL is not going to be around for the long haul. Lens roll out has been so agonizingly slow that any momentum they had with the initial launch of the SL 601 has been lost. There is a lot more competition now in the mirrorless market with lenses that are getting closer to the Leica optical and build standard for a fraction of the cost. So once the 21 and 24 mm are released, whats next? I suspect the slow lens launches were deliberate to keep some vague interest in the system, but even that will cease to exist within a year or so. Meanwhile, the M system seems to continuously evolve, which is somewhat ironic. M10M, M10-R, 35 APO, Noctiluxes for 50/75/90 etc.

Is not it always like this about Leica? 

Lost the initial momentum? which initial? 1907? 

[MediaFotografie]

Now I think one reason why there isn't much "fanfare" is because Leica announced this lens in September 2018 - two and a half year ago, meanwhile most users had the really wonderful 35SL; I think there will bei more interest when we see the Summicros 21mm and 24mm - in 2022

[caissa]

I don’t care about fanfare. I use the camera just for photography.

[caissa]

I am currently more concerned that the forum software has been changed and that some bugs have been built in. For example it is not possible to edit entries anymore. 

I also do not care too much about “nagging feelings” of M users regarding SL. I get the feeling this software is crap. And I cannot understand that changes are implemented without thoroughly testing them. Looks like amateurs are in the game.

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Hallo,

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[Daniel C.1975]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb caissa:

I am currently more concerned that the forum software has been changed and that some bugs have been built in. For example it is not possible to edit entries anymore. 

I also do not care too much about “nagging feelings” of M users regarding SL. I get the feeling this software is crap. And I cannot understand that changes are implemented without thoroughly testing them. Looks like amateurs are in the game.

You can edit, just click the three dots on the upper right corner of your post and a pull down menue will appear.

What I do not understand are users who are not able to open their eyes to find typical signs of how a modern software works,  but instead argue that someone else is the amateur. I do see some Ironie in this behaviour, especially as we pay zero money for this great forum. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Daniel C.1975
Edited because I was able to do so :D