Review: The New Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm F2 ASPH.

[MarkP]

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6 minutes ago, Gelatino said:

I am on a pre order list since march. Knowing a price "adjustment" was scheduled in April I had asked if the price would be "adjusted" or not. The answer was that the price would be the initial one, and in the case of increase, there would be a compensation in Leica products.  More than seven months later I don't know if that will be still possible.

Had you put down a deposit? That should have locked in a price 

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, MarkP said:

Had you put down a deposit? That should have locked in a price 

Mark, 

I agree it should do but it doesn't on cars, unless you have specifically negotiated a fixed price with your dealer. When I ordered my Hybrid Panamera with a deposit. I was told a month or so later, that not only was the delivery going to delayed by 3 to 4 months but the engine was going to have fractionally less power than the original spec (changeover to WLTP consumption standards and supposedly the reason for the delay) plus the price was going up by 5%. Luckily for me, some premiere league footballer had been sacked and could not pay for his Panamera, which was sitting at the dealer waiting to be picked up. It was a slightly odd spec, so in the end I got it at 7% off list instead of having to pay 5% extra and I got it right away. I presume the footballer had paid a deposit, which he forfeited, hence why the dealer could afford the 7% discount. 

Wilson

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[mmradman]

3 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

Mark, 

I agree it should do but it doesn't on cars, unless you have specifically negotiated a fixed price with your dealer. When I ordered my Hybrid Panamera with a deposit. I was told a month or so later, that not only was the delivery going to delayed by 3 to 4 months but the engine was going to have fractionally less power than the original spec (changeover to WLTP consumption standards and supposedly the reason for the delay) plus the price was going up by 5%. Luckily for me, some premiere league footballer had been sacked and could not pay for his Panamera, which was sitting at the dealer waiting to be picked up. It was a slightly odd spec, so in the end I got it at 7% off list instead of having to pay 5% extra and I got it right away. I presume the footballer had paid a deposit, which he forfeited, hence why the dealer could afford the 7% discount. 

Wilson

Sweet irony, being subsidised by a footballer 😂. 

[daysareforgotten]

Question to the apo 35 owners: Is there anything mechanical moving on the mount side when the new Apo goes into close focus range? I wonder if they will add a small lever or pin that could trigger live view on a future M body. Such a device would be particularly useful for a hybrid viewfinder. 

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb daysareforgotten:

Such a device would be particularly useful for a hybrid viewfinder. 

According to what I was told by Leica's product manager directly recently, there will be no hybrid viewfinder in an M body anytime soon. I specifically asked them, and got a very clear answer on this.

[IkarusJohn]

That was confirmed some years ago - they looked closely at it, and didn’t like it.  Detracted from the optical rangefinder and the EVF wasn’t good enough.  I don’t think I see that changing - the OVF is excellent in its current manifestation.  EVF have improved to the point where a built in EVF, and no optical mechanism, is more likely.

[Jeff S]

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Stefan Daniel discussed issues with the hybrid finder, as I posted here…

Jeff

[wizard]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

EVF have improved to the point where a built in EVF, and no optical mechanism, is more likely.

And how would a rangefinder be integrated into an EVF? As that is what would be needed to still call an EVF equipped M camera a true M. 

[IkarusJohn]

24 minutes ago, wizard said:

And how would a rangefinder be integrated into an EVF? As that is what would be needed to still call an EVF equipped M camera a true M. 

?

It wouldn’t.  It wouldn’t be a rangefinder.  It would be an M camera with an EVF and no rangefinder …

[wizard]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb IkarusJohn:

It would be an M camera with an EVF and no rangefinder …

So not an M camera then, as in my view the only truly distinguishing feature of an electronic M camera is its rangefinder. That is the raison d'être of any electronic M camera. Else it would merely be a mirrorless electronic camera, of which there are many. An M-mount alone in my view is not sufficient to call a camera an M camera.

[IkarusJohn]

Right.  That’s novel.  It’s all about the name.  Next you’ll be saying M means meßsucher.  Very important, never mind that Leica has previously released cameras with no rangefinder - albeit limited (pre-empting a history lesson from Andy).

Meanwhile, Leica has released an M lens, the topic of this thread, which does not work with a rangefinder for close focus - one of its unique selling points, and two M lenses it recommends you use with an EVF wide open (the 75 Noctilux and 90 Summilux).  To be honest, I doubt anyone who wants an M mount camera with an EVF gives a toss what it’s called.  But, to stay on topic, if you want the new APO Summicron-M 35/2 ASPH, you can only use the close focus end with an EVF.  So, yes M means meßsucher, but with an EVF?

Clearly for many, M means the M mount, and Leica is releasing M lenses not limited by the rangefinder.  Other mirrorless cameras with an M mount, M form factor, M sensor and Leica quality?  No.

Edited September 24, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[jdlaing]

It is not necessary to use the EVF to close focus that lens. 

[IkarusJohn]

7 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

It is not necessary to use the EVF to close focus that lens. 

Interesting - in your experience of this lens, how do you focus at 300mm without an EVF?  With the LCD?  Very meßsucher …

[jdlaing]

1 minute ago, IkarusJohn said:

Interesting - in your experience of this lens, how do you focus at 300mm without an EVF?  With the LCD?  Very meßsucher …

I didn’t say I do it. You don’t need an EVF tho.

[farnz]

Scale focus.

Pete.

[MarkP]

So I managed to finally get out and test the lens for the first time today.  I’ll not post boring test shots but something worthwhile later.

I’m ecstatic over how well it performs on the M10 AND SL2 - renders beautifully on both cameras. It lives up to the hype ( and I don’t think I’m drinking the APO coolade 🙄). 

I did some very detailed tests, maybe not up to Sean Reed standards, but enough to convince me that’s it’s corner resolution on the SL2 is outstanding (and minimal deterioration moving from 5.6 to 2.0). 

This is a very versatile lens and will therefore also serve very well for landscapes etc on the SL2 and into the future cross-platform on the M cameras. 

I have no regrets whatsoever having traded the 1.4/35 Summilux FLE for it. I’d had the Summilux since late 2009, long enough to know I wouldn’t miss it. I have a 35 Summicron v4 for when I want ‘character’.

I was very lucky to have picked this lens up, coincidentally having calling about something else the day after it arrived in the store - I feel just a little guilty ( not really 😁). 
 

Hopefully those of you still waiting will get yours soon.  It’s worth the wait.

I’m off to take more photos…

[wizard]

Am 24.9.2021 um 22:58 schrieb IkarusJohn:

Meanwhile, Leica has released an M lens, the topic of this thread, which does not work with a rangefinder for close focus - one of its unique selling points, and two M lenses it recommends you use with an EVF wide open (the 75 Noctilux and 90 Summilux).  To be honest, I doubt anyone who wants an M mount camera with an EVF gives a toss what it’s called.  But, to stay on topic, if you want the new APO Summicron-M 35/2 ASPH, you can only use the close focus end with an EVF.  So, yes M means meßsucher, but with an EVF?

In my view, and I assume I am not alone on this one, the USP of an M-Leica is its rangefinder. I am not at all against an M-Leica having an EVF, I'd actually like to have one myself, but it would need to also have a rangefinder. And that was my initial question: How does a rangefinder work in combination with an EVF? Apparently it doesn't, as no one has so far come up with a viable solution (not even Leica, who appear to have tried for quite some time, but have now shelved that project). Why would Leica want to dilute the essence of their M camera by bringing out an M mount EVF camera without a rangefinder, yet still call it an M-Leica? They may just give it any other name, as they have done with other models in their lineup.

[IkarusJohn]

I think you’re right - Leica has no intention of making a hybrid viewfinder.  At least, that was the clear statement from them the last time this issue was raised.  Similarly, the last time an EVF based M camera was discussed, it was said to be “inevitable” (Stefan Daniel), along with the statement that they would always make a rangefinder based M.  They do change their minds from time to time.

My expectation is that when EVFs are good enough, we will see an MEVF.  Have we reached that time?  No idea.  Will I buy one? No.  I have enough cameras.  Will they call it an M camera?  Well, what else will they call it, if it has an M mount, M shape, M sensor and everything else M camera (no AF etc).  But then, actually I doubt it really matters …

[jonoslack]

On 9/24/2021 at 9:58 PM, IkarusJohn said:

if you want the new APO Summicron-M 35/2 ASPH, you can only use the close focus end with an EVF.  So, yes M means meßsucher, but with an EVF?

 

Not to be pedantic . .  well, actually, yes, To Be Pedantic 🤪 . . you don't need to use an EVF for the close focus on the 35 APO - you just need to use live view on the back screen (done it lots of times and it works well). I've found it much more useful than I expected, and of course it's useful if you plan to use the lens on an SL2 (or something else).

best

Jono

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, jonoslack said:

Not to be pedantic . .  well, actually, yes, To Be Pedantic 🤪 . . you don't need to use an EVF for the close focus on the 35 APO - you just need to use live view on the back screen (done it lots of times and it works well). I've found it much more useful than I expected, and of course it's useful if you plan to use the lens on an SL2 (or something else).

best

Jono

Yes, I did acknowledge that; and Pete mentioned zone focusing too.

It’s an interesting point - when do you use the LCD and when do you use the EVF?  I don’t have a live view LCD M camera, but I do have the SL and TL2.  I’m sure you recall the scorn heaped on the T when it was released - holding your camera at arms’ length like some selfie taking teenager, etc etc.

I’m too old fashioned to dispense with holding a camera up to my face to take pictures most of the time.  If I can’t hold the camera to look through the eye piece (macro, on a tripod, or remote triggering, long exposures etc), I like to use my phone and WiFi - it’s terribly convenient.  But, also when I’m taking portraits, or group shots, I hate having the camera over my face.  I like to engage with the subjects, and watch what’s going on, and trigger the shutter as I talk to them.  I find I can get more natural images, and my timing is better if I’m not using a viewfinder, so I do use the LCD on the TL2 in those situations.  Not so much the SL, as it’s bigger and heavier..

I don’t have the 35 APO Summicron.  What are the situations where you use the close focus with any frequency?  And in those situations, do you actually use the optical and or the EVF viewfinder?  Or do you actually use the LCD?  Just curious.

I am mindful that Leica has recommended using an EVF with both the 75 Noct and 90 Summilux, but that has litte to do with the 35 APO - I imagine the depth of field at f/2 and 30cm doesn’t make focus so critical.  If you’re focusing that close, getting the focus right is critical, isn’t it?

Best
John