The Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH - First Impressions

[Steven]

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58 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I spent a happy hour discussing this with Peter Karbe - it's true of all the modern APO summicrons.

Basically it's because they have almost twice as much contrast when in focus, but the focus drops off very quickly when going out of focus, which gives the impression of a wider aperture . . . . I have a diagram he drew for me, but basically this gives the explanation:

Although this is a comparison of 75s, the same thing works - it's getting rid of the colour aberrations which gives you such high contrast.

 

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Thanks for this precious information, I wish we could pin posts in to the top of a thread. 

Just to make sure: this only applies to the look of the image, right ? I mean that An F2 shot looks almost like an F1.4 shot, but it does not mean that the lens will receive more light and be able to shoot at a faster shutter speed than a non APO Summicron at the same aperture, in the same scenario, correct ? 

In any case, if I go back to my pros and cons list, to me the 1.4 aperture of the FLE vs the APO is not a significant advantage anymore. I can also luckily afford to disregard the price advantage of the FLE. Conclusion: things are starting to look clearer for my decision making. 

[jonoslack]

17 minutes ago, Steven said:

Thanks for this precious information, I wish we could pin posts in to the top of a thread. 

Just to make sure: this only applies to the look of the image, right ? I mean that An F2 shot looks almost like an F1.4 shot, but it does not mean that the lens will receive more light and be able to shoot at a faster shutter speed than a non APO Summicron at the same aperture, in the same scenario, correct ? 

In any case, if I go back to my pros and cons list, to me the 1.4 aperture of the FLE vs the APO is not a significant advantage anymore. I can also luckily afford to disregard the price advantage of the FLE. Conclusion: things are starting to look clearer for my decision making. 

Pleased to be of service Steven

Indeed - the APO Summicrons may have the apparent depth of field of an f1.4, because of the drop in contrast, but they only have the light gathering power of an f2. But then, that can be an advantage shooting in bright light, and let's face it, the high ISO on modern cameras doesn't often mean that you need an extra stop wide open!

 

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[lct]

As far as M lenses are concerned, seems  like the 75/2 apo has less DoF in the background and more DoF in the foreground than the 75/1.4. Kind of Zeiss behavior sort of.

[Steven]

20 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

But then, that can be an advantage shooting in bright light

Great way too see the glass half full! 

 

20 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

the high ISO on modern cameras doesn't often mean that you need an extra stop wide open!

Also true. With my SL2-S, I could probably shoot portraits with a Summaron 28 and just the moon light, it would still look clean 😜

[gotium]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Pleased to be of service Steven

Indeed - the APO Summicrons may have the apparent depth of field of an f1.4, because of the drop in contrast, but they only have the light gathering power of an f2. But then, that can be an advantage shooting in bright light, and let's face it, the high ISO on modern cameras doesn't often mean that you need an extra stop wide open!

 

Well that's interesting to hear - I remember thinking I saw this in the 50 range (comparing with the 50 lux) and wondering why the effect was so pronounced (and so nice) an a lens with a smaller aperture. So it is by deliberate design. 

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

they only have the light gathering power of an f2. But then, that can be an advantage shooting in bright light,

 

 

54 minutes ago, Steven said:

Great way too see the glass half full! 

 

 

Not really. specially with the M10 variants (not the M10-r). shooting in bright contrasty light wide open is often not possible without an ND filter. Saving a stop from f1.4 to f2 can make all the difference!

[Steven]

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21 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

 

 

Not really. specially with the M10 variants (not the M10-r). shooting in bright contrasty light wide open is often not possible without an ND filter. Saving a stop from f1.4 to f2 can make all the difference!

I 100% agree with you. 

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I spent a happy hour discussing this with Peter Karbe - it's true of all the modern APO summicrons.

Basically it's because they have almost twice as much contrast when in focus, but the focus drops off very quickly when going out of focus, which gives the impression of a wider aperture . . . . I have a diagram he drew for me, but basically this gives the explanation:

Although this is a comparison of 75s, the same thing works - it's getting rid of the colour aberrations which gives you such high contrast.

 

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Peter discusses this same effect with the SL 35 APO (and some of his other recent releases).
 

 Starts at about 28:30...

 

This can be a nice benefit, but at times I find that the effect of steep contrast falloff can be rather jarring, as if the subject is pasted in the pic, depending on subject distance, lighting, background, etc. As always, user technique is key.

Jeff

Edited March 8, 2021 by Jeff S

[jonoslack]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Peter discusses this same effect with the SL 35 APO (and some of his other recent releases).
 

I think the point is that it’s true of ALL the APO summicrons (including the 75 and 50 M lenses). 

Of course, you don’t have to like it (in which case go for the Asph Summiluxes instead, which generally don’t show it). 

But it seems to me that Peter Karbe with his team, has been the author of a new ‘look’ in lenses, and carried it through 5 SL lenses and at least 3 M lenses (I don’t know either the 135 APO Telyt  or th 90 APO Summicron well enough). 

This is a real help for any photographer who is trying to develop a style of shooting (and they don’t have to reinvent it for each focal length which has a different character)

Best

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

I think the point is that it’s true of ALL the APO summicrons (including the 75 and 50 M lenses). 

Of course, you don’t have to like it (in which case go for the Asph Summiluxes instead, which generally don’t show it). 

But it seems to me that Peter Karbe with his team, has been the author of a new ‘look’ in lenses, and carried it through 5 SL lenses and at least 3 M lenses (I don’t know either the 135 APO Telyt  or th 90 APO Summicron well enough). 

This is a real help for any photographer who is trying to develop a style of shooting (and they don’t have to reinvent it for each focal length which has a different character)

Best

I think the photographer primarily creates the style, Jono (as your pics testify). But that’s another discussion.  

I did own the 50 APO M for a while, but ultimately sold it and kept my 50 M Summilux  ASPH instead. But I do enjoy the SL 75 (and 2 long SL zooms) on my SL2.

Choices... for gear as well as shooting/editing/printing... are good to have.

Jeff

[John Smith]

38 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

But it seems to me that Peter Karbe with his team, has been the author of a new ‘look’ in lenses, and carried it through 5 SL lenses and at least 3 M lenses (I don’t know either the 135 APO Telyt  or th 90 APO Summicron well enough). 

I thought the 75mm APO was based on the design of the 50mm Summilux. Seems to me that the "new look" really started with the 50mm APO. I could be wrong on this, but the 75mm APO's MTF doesn't seem to show as much contrast as the 50mm APO.

[Danner]

7 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I spent a happy hour discussing this with Peter Karbe - it's true of all the modern APO summicrons.

Basically it's because they have almost twice as much contrast when in focus, but the focus drops off very quickly when going out of focus, which gives the impression of a wider aperture . . . . I have a diagram he drew for me, but basically this gives the explanation:

Although this is a comparison of 75s, the same thing works - it's getting rid of the colour aberrations which gives you such high contrast.

 

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Interesting, and comprehensible.  Thank you for posting this.

It occurs to me, this is also evidence there is no such thing as a "perfect" lens.

Edited March 9, 2021 by Danner
spelling

[Thejoon]

@Steven Thanks for sharing your experience here. very helpful. 

It seems you've used this lens with both M and SL. 

Can you please how it was different? I assume SL must be better to digest this lens as you can still focus 0.3 to infinity without changing the focus mode (EVF anyway)

Whereas, you need to change from OVF to live view to focus <0.7. 

Did it bother you in actual use? 

I recently sold all my digitals, but this lens makes me to consider buy one again lol. 

In short, I prefer M10(P), yet now I'm even considering SL/SL2S

 

Thanks 

[rcusick]

All Leica lenses are known for strong character separation and micro contrast.  The apo seems a modern interpretation.   Cool data based view of the lens.  Thanks guys. 

[Steven]

8 hours ago, Thejoon said:

@Steven Thanks for sharing your experience here. very helpful. 

It seems you've used this lens with both M and SL. 

Can you please how it was different? I assume SL must be better to digest this lens as you can still focus 0.3 to infinity without changing the focus mode (EVF anyway)

Whereas, you need to change from OVF to live view to focus <0.7. 

Did it bother you in actual use? 

I recently sold all my digitals, but this lens makes me to consider buy one again lol. 

In short, I prefer M10(P), yet now I'm even considering SL/SL2S

 

Thanks 

The APO works perfectly fine on an M and the images are sharp and beautiful. It is a bit of frustration having to interupt yourself to turn on live view, but its still a great bonus that I'd rather have than not. 

That being said, for me, this is lens that is going to spend most time on my SL2S where I think it excels the most. First it terms of form factor, as it obviously feels much smaller and compact (and cute) on an SL2x than on an M, where it's not, by my standards, a small lens. With my smaller Summilux 35 pre asph or Nokton, for example, I prefer to use them on an M where it feels just perfect, while it feels a bit too small on an SL2x. 

In terms of image quality, I also think it excels with the sensor of the SL2-S. The look it gives is just unreal. It's slightly different in my opinion than the M. I'm not sure how to describe it, but the SL2S feels a little more digital, or a little less organic than an M, and the image results in something overly realistic, with an insane 3D pop effect. I like it a lot, even if its not the look I'm always after. Being an F2 lens, one might feel a bit short on light at night with the mediocre low light capabilities of the M10 series (I prefer to have an F1.4 lens), but on the SL2S, that will never be a problem. The image will look beautiful at F2 in any scenario. 

And then of course there is the MFD thing. The EVF makes it flawless, to the point that when using this lens with an EVF you almost get annoyed that there is click to remind you (and distract you) when entering close range territory. 

Disclaimer: you're talking to someone who really fell in love with the SL2-S (FYI I had returned my SL2 after two weeks, hating that camera) and so I am a little bit biased. But I think that 35 APO is actually a match made in heaven to pair with the SL2S, as long as you can live without AF. 

I still have to test it with video, where my first results aren't too positive. I think the image looks a little too "real", and I would rather, in video, have a little more "atmosphere". Not a defintive opinion yet. 

Excuse my bad English and spelling mistakes, I would prefer to write my native language ! 

[John Robinson]

On 3/5/2021 at 5:40 PM, RF’sDelight said:

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I have to confess that I'm prone to GAS.

After all the buzz about the new Apo 35 and especially its close focus ability I had to prevent myself from thoughts on how to get the lens, which lens to trade for a purchase etc. So I grabbed my M10-P and the only lens available in my household that is M mountable and has a close focus range of 0.3 m: the Elmarit-R 1:2.8/28 (II).

And I am calmed …for now.

I don't have the Elmarit-R but I checked and both the Summicron-R 35 (II) and Elmarit-R 35 (II) go in well past 30cm.  I can't say what they would do on an M as I don't have the live-view model but they certainly perform well on the SL.  Both shots wide-open with the Summicron-R 35 at closest setting (about 20cm) from my colourful Mexican crocodile, using focus peaking and moving in and out to try to get the eye as primary focus point.  Maybe the Summicron-R 35 is not the most modern lens on the block but it is still capable of some superb images (not that I am saying a quick snap of a croc is anything more than a quick snap).

 

[Guest Nowhereman]

@Steven - If I recall correctly, you've written elsewhere that you have some preference for the Summilux 28 over the Summicron 35 APO. Can you summarize what your prefer in the 28, apart from having f/1.4?
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[Wonzo]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Steven:

I still have to test it with video, where my first results aren't too positive. I think the image looks a little too "real", and I would rather, in video, have a little more "atmosphere". Not a defintive opinion yet. 

Interesting observation. It only makes me wonder, why you don`t miss this "atmosphere" on stills. It can`t be there, if it isn`t on videos ....

Btw: what is you native language? 

[Steven]

21 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

@Steven - If I recall correctly, you've written elsewhere that you have some preference for the Summilux 28 over the Summicron 35 APO. Can you summarize what your prefer in the 28, apart from having f/1.4?
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Apart from having the 1.4 opening, which is a very serious advantage, I like it more for two other reason: 

- It's a focal length that grew a lot on me. I think it's such an interesting field of view. 

- In the way it renders, it has one similarity, and one difference, IMO. It creates the same 3D look with sharp subjects, like the APO. But unlike the APO, at F1.4, and while still being very sharp, it creates a more "cinematic" look in general, which I prefer over the "hyper realistic" look produced by the APO35. Does it make any sense ? 

 

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[Steven]

1 minute ago, Wonzo said:

Interesting observation. It only makes me wonder, why you don`t miss this "atmosphere" on stills. It can`t be there, if it isn`t on videos ....

Btw: what is you native language? 

French. 

For photos, I have different tastes as for moving images. I would think I'm not the only one and that it's quite a expected reality.

For stills, I actually like different looks. I like sharp, I like glow, I like DOF, I like F8 street photos, I like colour, I like BW, etc...

For films, I dont like BW, I dont like stopped down aperture, I like very narrow DOF, and I'd rather a glowy, imperfect lens than a very sharp lens. For example, I prefer my 35 pre asph or pre fle, or even my nokton, more than my 28 lux or 35APO. But while I still enjoy the moving image produced by the 28 Lux at 1.4, the 35 APO seems to go a little far in details. 

I think it all comes down to the fact that while I like digital and film photography, when it comes to movies, I'd rather stay as far as possible from a digital look. So I won't got for 8K in my new A1 with the 35 APO 😂

Makes sense, or am I just talking non sense?