The Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm f/2 ASPH - First Impressions

[Printmaker]

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1 hour ago, Kamyar said:

This lens is definitely a jewel, maybe if I can afford it I will definitely buy it.  But for a street photographer, what is the difference between this lens and a 35 corn v4 when shooting with monochrome?  Numbers are not more important than the goal.  But the same argument makes this lens lovable.  It is admirable, but where and for what purpose

Kamyar. 

I understand your point but I often found the results more pleasing when shooting with sharper, more contrasty, lenses on the Monochrom. As a result, I tended to shoot a 50 Summicron on the Monochrom and a 35 Summicron type IV on my M9 or M10. It is an individual preference but I like sharp and contrasty B&W images where color ones can be pleasing when shot a touch softer.

Yet here I am this morning looking at what I can sell to acquire this new 35. Along with thousands of other Leica addicts, no doubt. 

[Mahesh]

10 hours ago, Steven said:

Let me know if you guys want to see any specific thing with the lens. Ive been obsessed with 30cm but I can try more stuff ! 

All the photos are SOOC RAWs converted to Jpeg in lightrroom and then compressed before posted here. 

Hi... Could you post some portraits, head shoulder, half body and then full length please at f2? Thank you

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[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

No it’s not unique, because the SL35 “created” that unique look. 

Let's agree to disagree. The modern APO look has been around for a long time, minimally from nearly decade old the 50mm 'cron-M, but arguably far further back to the 75mm or the even more ancient 90mm. 

Admittedly with limited samples against my own use of the SL-35 for over a year,  I'm not seeing as strong relationship between the two as you seem to be. IMO, this new lens appears to have a more subtle notion of contrast, at least in English light and Jono's hands.  The falloff and bokeh, particularly in the painted, slightly nervous, impressionist quality of the final shot in his review reminds me far more of my 50s Summarit than anything I've ever seen from the SL. If you examine the optical design, it's clear the two lenses are quite different. No doubt in many cases they will be indistinguishable from each other (and most any other modern 35mm for that matter), but to my eye this new optic seems to have taken the edge off Karbe's typical razor blade (of which the SL-35mm is the canonical example), something, I greatly prefer. YMMV, of course.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Tailwagger

[bags27]

I'm relieved to see the photos from the new M35 Cron APO, as they don't appear to me quite as alluring as those from the M50 Cron APO. The slightly longer lens creates what, for me, are the most attractive images in all Leicaland (except for some of those coming from the drool-worthy and very different S lenses).

Since I prefer 35 to 50, I was preparing myself to fork over an ungodly amount of money and figuring out how to sneak it past my wife. I'm relieved now that I can stay with the 35 FLE at least a little longer. Subject to change.

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by bags27

[Tom1234]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Tom asked generally  Does the new APO ASPH have an aesthetic all it's own?

Steve Answered:  In my view, yes and no. 

No it’s not unique, because the SL35 “created” that unique look. 

Yes because now you can not only achieve this look with an M, in a revolutionary manner, but you can also extend things further and get close to this look by adapting the M Lens to other camera system, which wasn’t possible with the SL35 expect [except] if you’re a rare Panasonic owner. 

 

24 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Let's agree to disagree. The modern APO look has been around for a long time, minimally from nearly decade old the 50mm 'cron-M, but arguably far further back to the 75mm or the even more ancient 90mm. 

Admittedly with limited samples against my own use of the SL-35 for over a year,  I'm not seeing as strong relationship between the two as you seem to be. IMO, this new lens appears to have a more subtle notion of contrast, at least in English light and Jono's hands.  The falloff and bokeh, particularly in the painted, slightly nervous, impressionist quality of the final shot in his review reminds me far more of my 50s Summarit than anything I've ever seen from the SL. If you examine the optical design, it's clear the two lenses are quite different. No doubt in many cases they will be indistinguishable from each other (and most any other modern 35mm for that matter), but to my eye this new optic seems to have taken the edge off Karbe's typical razor blade (of which the SL-35mm is the canonical example), something, I greatly prefer. YMMV, of course.

Sorry, and no insult meant to anyone, but I agree with Steve on this.  Pictures I've seen showing this new APO ASPH aesthetic are very similar to the SL lenses and the first Leica M 50 Asph which all have this "super sharpness"  or "all is seen clearly" aesthetic.  QUESTION: So how would you describe the differences between the A: new 35mm APO ASPH, B:SL ASPH, C:Summarit 2.5/2.5, and the D:regular non-APO ASPH?  Maybe there are no/few significant differences to find?  

The above listed are the new super sharp lenses visually and by MTF graphs.  In the past, I have stated on this forum, that as lenses all become more perfect there are less differences between them so who cares which one you own those made by Leica or by manufacturer X?  Yet you guys moving onto this new ground of super sharp ASPH lenses might be forming opinions about differences between the new super sharp lenses… so which do you like best and why?   Any real differences wide open?  

Forget F4, F5.6, and F8.0 where all lenses have looked the similar for probably the last 30 years - yet even here there are some differences...

To me the old Pre-ASPH Summicrons have a "rounder" edge look that I like and will never see as replaced by the sharper ASPH.  Both old and new here have an aesthetic standing all their own and one is not better than another it just depends on the look you want.  Leica is creating new history with a new aesthetic.  

[lct]

I seem to see a high acutance lens similar to my 50/2 apo, which is fine for those who like that, but new aesthetic really? I would need to see a raw file to believe things like that .

[Tailwagger]

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1 hour ago, Tom1234 said:

Sorry, and no insult meant to anyone, but I agree with Steve on this. 

None taken by me. We all see things in our own way and frankly the only way to truly form a valid opinion on these things is over time and by shooting in varied conditions.  Early days.  I simply look at similar shots from Jono in his two reviews and see what I interpret at this point as different levels of contrast on offer. That might be a function of the lens, the sensor, processing, viewing at reduced size or whether he fully enjoyed his breakfast that morning. Can't say. All very unscientific at this point. But as an example, from his reviews while there are some similarities, I see very different rendering between these similarly lit, very high contrast scenes, admittedly taken at different f stops. All personal impressions at this point and again, YMMV.   Photos below linked from Jono Slack's reviews on these two lenses...

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Edited March 5, 2021 by Tailwagger

[MrFriendly]

I was expecting the 35 APO to be priced at $10K or more, but it's actually cheaper than the 50 APO (at $8,190 vs $8,795).  What gives?

[Tom1234]

10 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

None taken by me. We all see things in our own way and frankly the only way to truly form a valid opinion on these things is over time and by shooting in varied conditions.  Early days.  I simply look at similar shots from Jono in his two reviews and see what I interpret at this point as different levels of contrast on offer. That might be a function of the lens, the sensor, processing, viewing at reduced size or whether he fully enjoyed his breakfast that morning. Can't say. All very unscientific at this point. But as an example, from his reviews while there are some similarities, I see very different rendering between these similarly lit, very high contrast scenes, admittedly taken at different f stops. All personal impressions at this point and again, YMMV. 

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Great beauty in these shots thanks for sharing. 

[Tailwagger]

Just now, Tom1234 said:

Great beauty in these shots thanks for sharing. 

Dont blame me, blame the marvelous Mr. Slack. If you haven't examine his reviews on these two lenses, it might be worth reviewing his thoughts and examples from these two lenses. 

35 Summicron-M,  SL-35

[Guest Nowhereman]

5 hours ago, Steven said:

Because it's rare ? Because it looks good ? Because it's an amazing lens ? All of the above? I was about to sell it not to have too many 35mm. You're making me anxious. 

My feeling is that it's not just the looks but, more importantly that the build of the silver chrome Summicron 35v4 appears to be much better than of the black one. As I mentioned in another thread, I bought the black one (Wetzlar) in 1988. The construction of the front element is not good. By 2013, the aperture ring was so loose and greasy that I had to have a CLA that cost €525 incl. VAT in Solms. Two years later the aperture ring got so loose again that I had get it repaired it again (€250 incl. VAT), but Leica/Beaumarchais gave me express service and I had the lens back within week. I hadn't wanted to get the lens fixed again, but there was a reason that I needed it rapidly, though I don't recall why. Today, the front aperture ring is getting sloppy again , making me wish I had gotten rid of the lens in 2015 — though I like the rendition of the lens a lot.
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[Chriseto]

On 3/3/2021 at 8:44 AM, Steven said:

Hello, 

I know there are already a couple 35 APO M threads, but they all initiated from rumours, and are a bit all over the place. I suggest we create a new thread here to consolidate now that the lens is real and for actual users to share their first impressions? 

I have the lens in my hands now but I promised my dealer that I would not share any pictures of it or from it until tomorrow 3PM, when it will be officially announced. I will do so tomorrow when the embargo is lifted. 

In the meantime, I can confirm a few facts to you: 

- it exists

- it will be released tomorrow. Limited quantities at first, only 5 in France in March. 

- I paid precisely 7450 euros for the lens

- it is black and compact 

- it is the first lens, to my knowledge, to have a minimum focus distance of 30cm ! 

See you tomorrow. 

Stev

Hi,

The WATE 16-21/4 has a minimum focus distance of 30cm, at different appertures, depending the focal you choose

[Tom1234]

4 minutes ago, MrFriendly said:

I was expecting the 35 APO to be priced at $10K or more, but it's actually cheaper than the 50 APO (at $8,190 vs $8,795).  What gives?

Date 2021-03-04: I found Leica 35mm APO ASPH at $8,195 online compared to 35mm Nikon/Canon/Sony in the $600 to $1,695 range from the same source B&H Photo in New York.  These are all similar in image quality and build quality.  Okay, Leica is a bit better but not anywhere near $8,195 - $1,695= $6,500 better.  Come on let's be real.  

The price is $8,195 /  $1,695 = 4.8 times more expensive. From the 1970's I can remember vaguely Nikon lenses selling for around $600 and Leica $1,800 or 3 times more expensive.  I think that when pricing at a 3 multiple in the hundreds of dollars you can get away with it.  But in the thousands of dollars, selling at high multiples over other competitive equipment is an overblown pricing scheme.  The total dollar cost makes Leica equipment unobtainable to the typical camera buyer spending between $2,000 and $4,000 USD for a camera and lens.  

Unable to sell the the typical camera market, Leica has to sell to a special ultra rich group of individuals that mostly do not perform photography regularly but only as a hobby.  These people do not have the time to learn photoshop or a video edit program.  This is a special small group of monied individuals looking for a vanity product.  When looking at the whole world market they do exist. 

So using my business background to help me understand, I must say that these prices are purely a branding and marketing exercise that will choke off selling to probably 98% of the general photography market.  On a world wide level they do have these super rich hobbyists to sell to, but selling to them at ultra high prices means they totally loose the mass of serious photographers who already pay a premium for a dedicated camera.  The not-serious photographer uses their cell phone.  So what happens when you have totally offended and lost the base market of photographers who use a dedicated camera and not their cell phone?  I know a commercial photographer who laughs at Leica's prices saying he could not make a living paying that much for camera equipment. 

When prices are this much higher than prices of similar quality lenses from Nikon, Cannon, and Sony then the company is pricing for the super rich, playing a branding status game, and in this APO ASPH case obviously testing the waters as to what they can get away with in the marketplace.  I have a Business Degree and understand this pricing strategy well.  It establishes the high priced product as an elitist brand for those with superfluous money.  

Maybe a person should not complain… this is just a simple business and economics thing, it is Leica's prerogative if they want to vastly overprice rather than value and competitive price as the Asians do.  My concern is that with equipment this expensive I am forced to buying just one body and one lens and no more…. while within the Asian pricing system I could buy much much more and therefore develop into a better photographer.  

Where will I steer my USD's (dollars)?  I am considering selling ALL of my Leica equipment due to what I see as an un-stable and un-sustainable product over-pricing scheme and pricey-&-poor service that will neuter the brand to the mass of the photographic community.  And I have not mentioned the problem of their service not fixing my lens and other's complaints about service and my M9 camera body problems. 

Certainly with lenses from all makers getting more and more perfect there is the law of diminishing returns as all equipment becomes more similar than it is different.  What I am told ON ALL FORUMS (including by Leica photographers) is that the differences visually are best handled in software not by buying special lenses… use a Log file (flat file) they say… you have to go through post production software anyway so why are you wasting time and money on ultra expensive lenses?  If asked, they would tell me I am an idiot to buy ultra high priced lenses.  Are they trolls or truth tellers… you decide. 

I feel like I am watching the reckless management of my favorite camera-&-company as they taunt me "just leave me… if you think you can…" so it feels like a divorce is coming… I would not take this out of any women…   

[lct]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

My feeling is that it's not just the looks but, more importantly that the build of the silver chrome Summicron 35v4 appears to be much better than of the black one.

I guess you're comparing the silver 35/2 v4 to an earlier black copy made in Canada. Later black copies made in Germany are built the same way as the silver chrome AFAIK. I have no experience with the silver chrome though.

[Alistairm]

Well, I got my 35 APO about 4 hours ago and I'm smitten with the way it feels in hand. I personally love the modern lens hood design, which is all of protective, compact and unlikely to catch on anything in a bag. Comfortably my second favourite lens hood after the twist out style on the 50 APO , which in my view is peerless in terms of form and function. Ergonomics are outstanding, it snaps into focus beautifully with the rangefinder and the 30cm mfd opens up a range of creative possibility not previously available. I doubt I'll use it inside 70cm very often, but it makes for some striking composotion choices and adds significant versatility an M body. As 35mm and 75mm are my most used focal lengths, it was not a tough decision to pick one up. 

I can't wait to get home and look at some of the images in Lightroom. Time will tell, and it's a big call, but I suspect that this lens will be one that Peter Karbe is best remembered for.  It truly does it all... M mount , compact (even with lens hood), optically close to faultless, groundbreaking minimum focus distance, ergonomically sublime, the best all around focal length (subjective, but for many) and with the contrast fall off from focal length that his best no compromise large barrel lenses are characterised by. 

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, Chriseto said:

Hi,

The WATE 16-21/4 has a minimum focus distance of 30cm, at different appertures, depending the focal you choose

The closer MFD is indeed unusual for M lenses. The SL 35 APO has a MFD of 27cm.  And even the SL 24-90 can focus to 30cm at the wide end.  Choices.

Jeff

[Chriseto]

2 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The closer MFD is indeed unusual for M lenses. The SL 35 APO has a MFD of 27cm.  And even the SL 24-90 can focus to 30cm at the wide end.  Choices.

Jeff

I do think as a M user since 2004 and Sl since 2015 that the best of this new lens is its size and MFD for using it with the SL system. I don't see the point to buy it for a M. But I do for the SL. I don't like the size of the SL lenses. Too enormous. The Q cameras have the "best"  MFD with 17 cm, which gives with the 1,7 aperture a reason to hesitate for buying this new APO summicron 35. For 5000$ you get a Q2 with a very good 1,7/28 ASPH lens. 
You're right. choices

[Tom1234]

2 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

Dont blame me, blame the marvelous Mr. Slack. If you haven't examine his reviews on these two lenses, it might be worth reviewing his thoughts and examples from these two lenses. 

35 Summicron-M,  SL-35

What the pictures at the above link lack in atmosphere is made up for in a sort of astonishing realism.   In the case of your pictures, you achieved atmosphere even while using an almost technical type of realistic portraying lens…. all I can say is great job on your part. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Tom1234

[astrostl]

How clicky is the aperture ring @Steven?

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Hallo,

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[Ken Abrahams]

4 hours ago, MrFriendly said:

I was expecting the 35 APO to be priced at $10K or more, but it's actually cheaper than the 50 APO (at $8,190 vs $8,795).  What gives?

The Australian price is $11,900 for 35 APO which includes sales tax, I will be making the hard decision to abstain sadly. The M 50 APO is $11,800 AUD 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Ken Abrahams