SL2-S and Atomos Ninja V L-Log in new firmware - ProRes RAW next?

[bilbrown]

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Leica USA and the new firmware 10.6.1 for the Atoms Ninja adds Leica L-Log externally to the Ninja V, to absolutely no fanfare at all besides ONE post on the Leica USA Instagram.

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL66wBirTzd/

 

The post reads: The Leica SL2-S x ATOMOS NINJA V

Unlock the full capabilities of external LOG recording now with the Leica SL2-S. 

📷 Full SL2-S support with AtomOS 10.61 
📷 Create footage & monitor every situation 
📷 Record in L-LOG 
📷 View with Leica’s Natural or Classic LUT

See more via the link in our bio.
 

 

Click the link and it goes to the SL2-S page, no mention of the Ninja V compatibility.

In fact, the only place I found the compatibility was in the firmware notes of the AtomOS 10.6.1.

 

 

Can anyone tell me what's going on, and does this mean ProRes RAW is on the way?

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[Photoworks]

Realistcly, if you had the ProResRaw option, how many time would you use it? 

L-log sounds more balanced of pro and cons

[simon_hsn]

The fact that Leica is already in contact with Atomos suggests that ProRes Raw will be implemented eventually. The life span of the SL2-S is probably 4+ years so there is still some room for it to be developed. The hardware certainly is ready (HDMI 2.0b, etc.). 

As for the usefulness of raw video, I think it is still at an early stage of development. However, in a couple of years it will be the standard and recorded internally, just like taking raw photos today. 

Advantages: 

- Superior image quality: 12 bit vs. the current 10 bit codecs
- Flexibility: White balance and Iso adjustments in post (this is huge)
- Very good editing performance

Disadvantages: 

- File size (approx. equal to ProRes HQ)
- Requires quite some extra work (most people underestimate this):  A. Post-Denoising, B. Optical corrections, C. Sharpening
- External device needed

As of now, the workflow with ProRes Raw does require quite a bit of extra effort. Once the NLE applies denoising, optical corrections and sharpening automatically and ProRes Raw can be recorded internally that would eventually help a lot to make it more adopted.

Lastly, raw video does NOT behave like raw photo. The quality difference between 10 bit 4.2.2 log and ProRes Raw is there, but not as huge as one would expect.

 

 

[hansvons]

There are advantages of raw over RGB log mostly due to bit and colour space (444 opposed to 422) and flexibility of colour temperature. On the Alexa with its ProRes 444 12 bit codec I never found Arri Raw desirable (unreal amount of data) or even necessary. On Red cameras, however, the RedCode Raw codec was/is the whole idea of the camera. But every manufacturer handles their raw implementation differently. There are noticeable difference of Arri Raw, BRAW or RedCode Raw and, of course, ProRes Raw which is the "least" raw codec of all video raw codecs I know.

I'm pretty certain they will enable ProRes Raw on the Atomos later in the development of the SL2s. It's the logical thing to do if you are already dealing with Atomos. I'm also wondering how Leica will handle the h265 codec implementation in the upcoming update. Will they implemented h265 to make smaller data rates possible or will they leverage the h265 technology for higher fidelity at the same bitrates? I'm hoping for the latter. 

[simon_hsn]

16 hours ago, hansvons said:

There are advantages of raw over RGB log mostly due to bit and colour space (444 opposed to 422) and flexibility of colour temperature. On the Alexa with its ProRes 444 12 bit codec I never found Arri Raw desirable (unreal amount of data) or even necessary. On Red cameras, however, the RedCode Raw codec was/is the whole idea of the camera. But every manufacturer handles their raw implementation differently. There are noticeable difference of Arri Raw, BRAW or RedCode Raw and, of course, ProRes Raw which is the "least" raw codec of all video raw codecs I know.

I'm pretty certain they will enable ProRes Raw on the Atomos later in the development of the SL2s. It's the logical thing to do if you are already dealing with Atomos. I'm also wondering how Leica will handle the h265 codec implementation in the upcoming update. Will they implemented h265 to make smaller data rates possible or will they leverage the h265 technology for higher fidelity at the same bitrates? I'm hoping for the latter. 

I agree with everything you have said. 

Interesting thought about the h265 implementation. I think Leica originally wanted to make it as easy as possible for the user to chose a codec. Usually, the choice is either  A. a highly compressed file for direct delivery (Long-GOP, 8 bit, 4.2.0) or B. maximum quality for post production with log (All-I, 10 bit, 4.2.2). But the world is more complex than this and users' needs differ in practice. 

Thus far, the best implementation of video codec options I have seen in a "consumer manageable" camera has been the Sony A7sIII / FX3: It basically offers everything for both 4k and 1080p up to 120p: H.265 & H.264, Long-Gop & All-I, 10 bit & 8 bit, 4.2.0 & 4.2.2, Slow and quick mode, etc. The only downside is the fact that this vast amount of options make the camera complex to operate and it does not quite fit into the Leica  philosophy  of "Less is more/Das Wesentliche". 

[Slender]

The 5K, full readout mode of the Leica SL2(not s) is already, seemingly, a h265 (long GOP, 200mbps, 10 bits, 420 sadly but for the most part not too curical) compression. I have been happy with it so far.

 

Its only internal recording however.

Edited March 4, 2021 by Slender

[Slender]

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Just added the VideoMic NTG, I love it and wanted it for a long time. So far it doesnt disapoint and the fact you can use it wirelessly with Rode GOs is also exciting.

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[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Slender said:

Just added the VideoMic NTG, I love it and wanted it for a long time. So far it doesnt disapoint and the fact you can use it wirelessly with Rode GOs is also exciting.

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nice, I have added the Rode wireless go II to my kit. having a 32 bits float internal recording in the body each is amazing.

[Slender]

Like the cable heart shape

 

[Aaron Daniel]

I was also unsure as to why Leica has just started sharing this update, as the AtomOS 10.61 update has been out for a few 2 weeks I believe. I've actually done a quick test comparing the internal L-Log and external L-log recording found here at timestamp 4:40

I am unsure as to why internal vs external renders differently even with the supplied LUT by Leica, does anyone know why this is?

I am very excited to see H265 as well as a ProRes Raw update 🤞

I've also just completed my first video editorial with this update, so I hope to share my thoughts on it in a professional setting shortly. At the moment, I do enjoy the look of internal L-Log versus external L-log

[CCC]

Am 3.3.2021 um 18:35 schrieb hansvons:

There are noticeable difference of Arri Raw, BRAW or RedCode Raw and, of course, ProRes Raw which is the "least" raw codec of all video raw codecs I know.

That is not entirely correct. BRAW is not a real RAW, it's just marketed as RAW. BRAW is pre- debayered in Camera, that's the reason why they could avoid the RED patent. ArriRAW is fully uncompressed RAW. RedCode RAW and ProResRAW are compressed RAW's. As RED owns the patent for compressed RAW (in Camera), Atomos is paying royalties to RED for using ProResRAW in their recorders. 

[Photoworks]

44 minutes ago, CCC said:

That is not entirely correct. BRAW is not a real RAW, it's just marketed as RAW. BRAW is pre- debayered in Camera, that's the reason why they could avoid the RED patent. ArriRAW is fully uncompressed RAW. RedCode RAW and ProResRAW are compressed RAW's. As RED owns the patent for compressed RAW (in Camera), Atomos is paying royalties to RED for using ProResRAW in their recorders. 

ProresRaw had nothing like raw few months ago. and isn't apple getting does royalties  for it.

Black magic raw is pretty sweet to me with the right setting.

[Photoworks]

On 3/4/2021 at 10:40 AM, Aaron Daniel said:

I am unsure as to why internal vs external renders differently even with the supplied LUT by Leica, does anyone know why this is?

 

legalized HDMI output on Atomos V

[Aaron Daniel]

32 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

legalized HDMI output on Atomos V

I thought so as well, but with the AtomOS 10.61 update, the Ninja V has the Leica SL2-S specific Camera Output option and the legalize option is not needed (it is actually greyed out so it isn't even an option when using the Leica option on the Ninja V). A lot like how it has most other camera brand options, it now has a Leica option. However, when used, it still has a difference in colour and contrast in external footage when compared to internal footage

[bilbrown]

On 3/3/2021 at 5:53 AM, simon_hsn said:

The fact that Leica is already in contact with Atomos suggests that ProRes Raw will be implemented eventually. The life span of the SL2-S is probably 4+ years so there is still some room for it to be developed. The hardware certainly is ready (HDMI 2.0b, etc.). 

As for the usefulness of raw video, I think it is still at an early stage of development. However, in a couple of years it will be the standard and recorded internally, just like taking raw photos today. 

Advantages: 

- Superior image quality: 12 bit vs. the current 10 bit codecs
- Flexibility: White balance and Iso adjustments in post (this is huge)
- Very good editing performance

Disadvantages: 

- File size (approx. equal to ProRes HQ)
- Requires quite some extra work (most people underestimate this):  A. Post-Denoising, B. Optical corrections, C. Sharpening
- External device needed

As of now, the workflow with ProRes Raw does require quite a bit of extra effort. Once the NLE applies denoising, optical corrections and sharpening automatically and ProRes Raw can be recorded internally that would eventually help a lot to make it more adopted.

Lastly, raw video does NOT behave like raw photo. The quality difference between 10 bit 4.2.2 log and ProRes Raw is there, but not as huge as one would expect.

 

 

For those of us that use cinema cameras like the ARRI, RED, or BMPCC we are well aware of RAW codecs and using programs like Davinci Resolve to design our looks.

 

I am honestly waiting for Leica to do a Leicacina reboot.

[Slender]

14 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

I thought so as well, but with the AtomOS 10.61 update, the Ninja V has the Leica SL2-S specific Camera Output option and the legalize option is not needed (it is actually greyed out so it isn't even an option when using the Leica option on the Ninja V). A lot like how it has most other camera brand options, it now has a Leica option. However, when used, it still has a difference in colour and contrast in external footage when compared to internal footage

I think (we) need to try 3 things separatly to have a definitive answer on what works best (for us) with L-Log

• Internal on SD card as it comes
• External to Ninja5 with the L-Log profile selected.
• No profile on Atomos, Legalize ON and OFF, make a note and see what happens in your NLE of choice.

This video is about 10.54 or wht the introduction of legal range means... it is dense but worth checking

 

 

[hansvons]

The issue with legal range or non-legal range has to do with Leica's usage of 4:2:2 YUV colour space in their codec and their decision to leverage the full range option in their internally recorded 4:2:2 footage. When ingesting footage in an NLE, it's worth checking whether the footage shows full range (non-legal) levels or studio swing (legal) levels. The latter will substantially crop the blacks and whites due to the Leica's behaviour to record full range video.

Not every camera is showing this behaviour. But to Leica's defence, in full-range mode, 4:2:2 YUV can carry more information which is good for quality (but bad for possible pitfalls). But since they are pitching the SL2s to professional video folks, a reasonable decision.

I haven't tested the Atomos yet, but I suppose to see here a similar behaviour. 

[simon_hsn]

13 hours ago, bilbrown said:

For those of us that use cinema cameras like the ARRI, RED, or BMPCC we are well aware of RAW codecs and using programs like Davinci Resolve to design our looks.

 

I am honestly waiting for Leica to do a Leicacina reboot.

I would also welcome if Leica embraces even more the moving image.

I like what Sony is doing with the A7sIII and its more cinema focused brother FX3. It would be cool, if Leica brought to market a cinema camera and starts offering useful accessories, like a XLR audio adapter unit (like the panasonic XLR1) or an on-camera mic without a cable like a Sony ECM B1M. 

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Hallo,

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[Photoworks]

21 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

I thought so as well, but with the AtomOS 10.61 update, the Ninja V has the Leica SL2-S specific Camera Output option and the legalize option is not needed (it is actually greyed out so it isn't even an option when using the Leica option on the Ninja V). A lot like how it has most other camera brand options, it now has a Leica option. However, when used, it still has a difference in colour and contrast in external footage when compared to internal footage

if you select a camera it is always greyed out. You really need to turn on the camera setting is you want to convert to a different in the ninja during filming. 

In DaVinci you can change clip attribute to FULL data level and then you result is the same. it is easy to do in post, and If you see the clip change and match to the SD recording... Legalize is the issue!

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[BernardC]

I've posted this before, but there's an old article that explains the "legal vs. extended" differences. It refers to the Arri Alexa, but the same applies to other cameras like the SL/SL2/SL2-S:

http://shootdatapost.com/blog/2012/8/1/arri-alexa-legal-vs-extended.html

Here's an excerpt that explains most of what you need to know:

Quote

An image encoded in 10 bit legal range has a code value range from 64 to 940 (876 code values), and a 10 bit extended range signal has a code value range from 4 to 1019 (1015 code values). Contrary to popular belief, extended range encoding does not provide a higher dynamic range, not does legal range encoding limit the dynamic range that can be captured. It is only the quantization (the number of lightness steps between the darkest and brightest image parts) that is increased by a marginal amount (about 0.2 bits).

Quote

All known systems, however, will automatically rescale the data to the more customary value range in computer graphics, which goes from zero to the maximum value allowed by the number of bits used in the system (e.g. 255, 1023, or 4095). FCP will display values outside the legal range (“superblack” and “superwhite”) but as soon as you apply a RGB filter layer, those values are clipped. This handling is the reason why the ALEXA camera does not allow recording extended range in ProRes.