scottee320 Posted March 1, 2021 Share #1 Posted March 1, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi everyone! I've got a burning question. After getting my m10 in November 2020 and shooting with it for a while, I've come to the realization that the sensor seems to just let in...less light than my DSLR bodies. I've never run into this situation before and have shot with mixed brands in the past. Exposure settings always matched up very, very closely. Has anyone else encountered this with a digital Leica, specifically the m10? In short, both the images below were shot with the same settings on two different cameras: 1/125th shutter, f/2 aperture, and ISO 400. The first image is an untouched DNG from my Leica m10, the second is an untouched NEF file from my Nikon d850. A huge difference! Any ideas why? Are all Leica bodies like this? Do I have a defective m10? Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/318474-m10-files-come-out-darkerunderexposed-than-other-cameras/?do=findComment&comment=4151280'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2021 Posted March 1, 2021 Hi scottee320, Take a look here M10 files come out darker/underexposed than other cameras?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted March 1, 2021 Share #2 Posted March 1, 2021 Are you using full manual mode, and not auto or with any negative EV set? Jeff 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 1, 2021 Share #3 Posted March 1, 2021 Different cameras, different factory interpretations of ISO values. The norm sheet leaves a lot of wiggle room for interpretation. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted March 1, 2021 Share #4 Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, Jeff S said: Are you using full manual mode, and not auto or with any negative EV set? Seconding this. I've unintentionally hit myself with exposure compensation in the past, or intentionally did and then forgot about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmars Posted March 1, 2021 Share #5 Posted March 1, 2021 All M´s underexpose a bit to prevent the highlights. This is more necessary than with other cameras, because the M has no multifield measuring in the rangefinder mode. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mujk Posted March 1, 2021 Share #6 Posted March 1, 2021 35 minutes ago, elmars said: All M´s underexpose a bit to prevent the highlights. This is more necessary than with other cameras, because the M has no multifield measuring in the rangefinder mode. I agree. But can the difference be that big? @scottee320, is it equally big with out of camera JPGs? I'm thinking of some difference in interpretation of the raw formats in post-processing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen.s1 Posted March 1, 2021 Share #7 Posted March 1, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Reaches for his M-10 and Olympus E-M1 v III Both look the same to me. Edited March 1, 2021 by Stephen.s1 addendum 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted March 1, 2021 Share #8 Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, elmars said: All M´s underexpose a bit to prevent the highlights. Not nearly this much, in my experience. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen.s1 Posted March 1, 2021 Share #9 Posted March 1, 2021 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/318474-m10-files-come-out-darkerunderexposed-than-other-cameras/?do=findComment&comment=4151419'>More sharing options...
mujk Posted March 1, 2021 Share #10 Posted March 1, 2021 Canon EOS 5DSR CR2 and Leica M10 DNG. 50mm, 1/125, f2.8, ISO800. Metered with the Canon, approx. -0,5 stops. Exported to JPG from LR. Because of the white wall, both are naturally underexposed. The M10 is somewhat darker, which can also be seen from the histograms. Interesting difference in white balance (both auto). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/318474-m10-files-come-out-darkerunderexposed-than-other-cameras/?do=findComment&comment=4151437'>More sharing options...
P1505 Posted March 1, 2021 Share #11 Posted March 1, 2021 Which is which? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottee320 Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share #12 Posted March 1, 2021 Appreciate the input from so many already! To be clear, I've take my m10 off of full manual mode and never used exposure compensation. I can understand that ISO means different things from manufacturer to manufacturer and sensor to sensor, but it is a bit alarming to see what appears to be 2 or 3 stop difference between the Nikon d850 and m10 when shot at the same settings. Will try some more tests with jpegs vs raw files (I never ever shoot jpegs in my professional work) and post what I find. Am also going to A/B test the m10 with m6 and match settings. I know there's plenty that goes into digital sensors that could be a factor here but on some level exposure is exposure--or at least it ought to be! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astrostl Posted March 1, 2021 Share #13 Posted March 1, 2021 5 minutes ago, scottee320 said: Appreciate the input from so many already! To be clear, I've take my m10 off of full manual mode and never used exposure compensation. Not to put too fine a point on it: never using EC doesn't mean it isn't accidentally set with a dial bump The way you'll know is if it shows any actual numbers (rather than arrows/dots) in red in the viewfinder. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toastybunzz Posted March 1, 2021 Share #14 Posted March 1, 2021 Unless you're using the spot or matrix mode, the default center weighted metering is a much more antiquated way to meter compared to modern cameras. It's easily tricked by bright skies or backlights, so it's easier to under or over expose compared to modern systems. If you're used to shooting a film camera it's not a big deal since that's common, but it'll take some getting used to if you're used to digital cameras. If you match ISO and shutter speeds between cameras it should be pretty close. ISO sensitivity will differ between camera makers so there's some variance there. If I meter off a grey card the Leica is correct but my Sony is about a half stop darker. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mujk Posted March 1, 2021 Share #15 Posted March 1, 2021 37 minutes ago, P1505 said: Which is which? In the order listed, i.e upper one Canon, lower Leica. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottee320 Posted March 1, 2021 Author Share #16 Posted March 1, 2021 12 minutes ago, astrostl said: Not to put too fine a point on it: never using EC doesn't mean it isn't accidentally set with a dial bump The way you'll know is if it shows any actual numbers (rather than arrows/dots) in red in the viewfinder. Exposure compensation is set to "off" completely on my camera. And even if it were on that would impact the metering and not the actual outcome of how over/under exposed a raw file would come out after I set ISO+shutter+aperture manually and deliberately.....Unless there is some weird metering voodoo afoot in Leica bodies that is unlike any other digital camera I've ever used. No numbers in the viewfinder indicating either EC or auto shutter, just a red arrow on the left side telling me I was under exposed. Same thing @Toastybunzz--this should have nothing to do with metering at all since both the m10 and DSLR with identical settings are in manual mode, so the camera is only suggesting what to meter for but not controlling the exposure that comes out the sensor itself. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
P1505 Posted March 1, 2021 Share #17 Posted March 1, 2021 Nobody else has said it so I will. Did you leave the lens cap on? Ill get my coat. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mujk Posted March 1, 2021 Share #18 Posted March 1, 2021 Just now, scottee320 said: Exposure compensation is set to "off" completely on my camera. And even if it were on that would impact the metering and not the actual outcome of how over/under exposed a raw file would come out after I set ISO+shutter+aperture manually and deliberately.....Unless there is some weird metering voodoo afoot in Leica bodies that is unlike any other digital camera I've ever used. No numbers in the viewfinder indicating either EC or auto shutter, just a red arrow on the left side telling me I was under exposed. Same thing @Toastybunzz--this should have nothing to do with metering at all since both the m10 and DSLR with identical settings are in manual mode, so the camera is only suggesting what to meter for but not controlling the exposure that comes out the sensor itself. Yes, both metering patterns and metering-related exposure compensation are out of the equation. So to me it seems that the cameras interpret these three setting values differently, either by design or because of a technical problem. Thinking of problems like broken shutter, aperture setting incorrect or broken A/D converter gain control. In theory also a software problem. But none of these seems very likely, because problems in digital devices usually show up as complete failures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mujk Posted March 1, 2021 Share #19 Posted March 1, 2021 BTW, did you check speed and ISO values in the EXIF of the DNG (the aperture value is a guesstimate so ignore that)? The M10 has a known problem of the ISO dial becoming detached from the actual selector switch beneath it. So ISO will get stuck on the last value set. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted March 1, 2021 Share #20 Posted March 1, 2021 1 hour ago, scottee320 said: Appreciate the input from so many already! To be clear, I've take my m10 off of full manual mode and never used exposure compensation. I can understand that ISO means different things from manufacturer to manufacturer and sensor to sensor, but it is a bit alarming to see what appears to be 2 or 3 stop difference between the Nikon d850 and m10 when shot at the same settings. Will try some more tests with jpegs vs raw files (I never ever shoot jpegs in my professional work) and post what I find. Am also going to A/B test the m10 with m6 and match settings. I know there's plenty that goes into digital sensors that could be a factor here but on some level exposure is exposure--or at least it ought to be! H Scottee320, Jaap is right. the M10's ISO values are inflated as compared to the Nikon's. As you stated you are setting all exposure parameters manually so metering patterns and exposure compensation dials have no effect here. I first discovered this when i tried to set my exposure based on a handheld meter reading. Now wether YOUR M10 is defective or not, probably the best way to find out is to perform the same test with the same lens using another M10. If you are close to Leica Soho then this should be a breeze. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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