My new Luftwaffe camera

[willeica]

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48 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I don‘t think „The Market“ is an invisible independant force to determine something. The clumsy forgery of a Leica clone with ugly engravings appeals to the same interests as making a point of a camera being enlisted as a sale to a military entity. 
I think a market would look more adult if it would call a simple camera by its model name and not by some names of military recipients. 

I have already said that military cameras have no personal interest for me and you will have seen enough of my posts to know that I always try to refer to a camera by its correct and full designation. However, I cannot deny what I see in auctions and dealers lists and I have much experience of seeing the values which some collectors ( the 'market') place upon military models. I agree with you about Leica clones, copies and fakes and I have written an article about this (for the UK Leica Society) which I can forward to any member who is interested. 

In the present case Augusto came to me last week with a photo of this camera, having already consulted with Jim Lager and also having consulted Cane's list, which is the recognised authority for such cameras. He is known to Jim Lager, Lars Netopil and myself and Augusto has also written on the subject of vintage Leicas for the Viewfinder magazine of the LHSA - The International Leica Society - where I am on the Board of Directors. I would regard Augusto as a collector of good standing who is well known among the collecting community.

Whatever issues you may have with the collecting of military cameras is a broader one, but such collecting has been around for many years and is unlikely to change as a result of any discussions here.

William

[tranquilo67]

53 minutes ago, UliWer said:

I don‘t think „The Market“ is an invisible independant force to determine something. The clumsy forgery of a Leica clone with ugly engravings appeals to the same interests as making a point of a camera being enlisted as a sale to a military entity. 
I think a market would look more adult if it would call a simple camera by its model name and not by some names of military recipients. 

Hi,

I think it depends on what's your interest. In my case, history and historical cameras in one way or another is probably my main interest.

That include of course, not only the military ones, but also as an example, the one that went to the Spanish Embassy in 1942 (the first one taking that route) just before the change of the Ambassador or the one that went to the Chief of "Service du Commerce" as an early sample of economical cooperation between Germany and France right after the war. All of them have a documented history behind.

So at the end, it's a matter of what's your interest. Engravings or to own in some way a "piece of history".

24 minutes ago, Pecole said:

Frankly, I agree that - from a collector's point of view - an unmarked IIIc sold to Luftwaffe or to anybody else, does not make any difference. When I collected, among the various "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" I owned, the one illustrated here had a real value. My Leica IIIc nº389789K was gray painted, had the "K" printed on the blind, was engraved "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" and "Fl.Nº38079", came with a Summitar engraved "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" and in a gray ERC embossed "Luftwaffeneigentum". That may be called a piece of collection!

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In this case I cannot agree with you, because for me, it has exactly the same interest: the history associated.

Do the history is more interesting for having the engravings? Not as per my understanding. Of course, I understand that some will prefer to show engravings (real or not). I know what I have, and that's enough for me.

It's like my IIIa. It's the last one, probably one of the lasts (if not the last) screw mount Leica ever built, and established a new record in production time for a Leica model (30 years). And it has no engraving. But I know that I have it.

Best wishes,

Augusto

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[UliWer]

When I utter my doubts about the rational of attributing any "value" - or worse: "real value" - to items delivered to some or other entities it is not to put anybody on the defence.  

At the same time I think doing the history might raise some thoughts before one calls a simple camera "My new Luftwaffe". 

[sabears]

Wellcome in the collecting world!

https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Mahathma_Gandhi's_items_auctioned_for_$1.8_million

https://nriinternet.com/A_Z/G/Mahatma_Gandhi/Gandhi_item_Auction/index.htm

if they had not been from Gandhi what would have been the "real value" of these items? May be 20 USD? 30 USD?

Edited February 26, 2021 by sabears

[tranquilo67]

5 minutes ago, UliWer said:

When I utter my doubts about the rational of attributing any "value" - or worse: "real value" - to items delivered to some or other entities it is not to put anybody on the defence.  

At the same time I think doing the history might raise some thoughts before one calls a simple camera "My new Luftwaffe". 

Of course I respect that.

As I mentioned, to me (and believe me, I'm not the only one) the delivery to the German Air Force during the war means something special (and I'm not talking about price).I know that a lot of people cannot understand it, some simply not interested and some others can be even bothered by the high prices fetched by some collectibles (that is always an interesting topic). A simple camera is also the Luxus or the original O-series if you want to see that way, but for me are something more than a simple camera.

I do not get defensive. I've got a lot harder challenges in this forum. Once more, I know what I have, that is exactly what I wanted to have: a nice piece of history. What I don't usually like is those that refuse to accept the reality if that reality doesn't meet their criteria, like in the case of collectible prices and desirability. The reality is so nasty that it's out there, even if we don't like it.

Regarding the title I do not fully understand you. How should I title the topic? I sincerely think that "My new Luftwaffe" describes perfectly what it's inside the topic and those not interested on the these type of collectibles, can easily avoid it.

Best regards,

Augusto

 

[zeitz]

William started a very interesting string recently because he was lucky enough to have negatives taken with a particular Leica.  It would be equally or even more interesting to have negatives taken with cameras used by the military just to know what they did with them.  I have a gray IIIcK made in 1944 that supposedly was one of the US Army Signal Corps cameras; I did not really want the camera but I had to buy it because it came with a reflex housing and lens that I wanted.  I would really like to see negatives taken with my particular camera and lens combination.

[jaapv]

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4 hours ago, UliWer said:

When I utter my doubts about the rational of attributing any "value" - or worse: "real value" - to items delivered to some or other entities it is not to put anybody on the defence.  

At the same time I think doing the history might raise some thoughts before one calls a simple camera "My new Luftwaffe". 

Luftwaffe is fairly neutral I would say. The  present German airforce goes by the name since 1956 without anybody having second thoughts...  And, during that time, presumably has had Leica cameras delivered to them. Are we allowed to talk about RAF Leicas?

[Rona!d]

Has anybody ever checked to whom a "Luftwaffe" camera does belong today? Cameras were expensive and in most cases not "gifts" to soldiers. If they are in private hands, there must be some kind of official paper about the shift of ownership otherwise they belong to the assignee of the Luftwaffe  😉

 

[sabears]

29 minutes ago, Rona!d said:

Has anybody ever checked to whom a "Luftwaffe" camera does belong today? Cameras were expensive and in most cases not "gifts" to soldiers. If they are in private hands, there must be some kind of official paper about the shift of ownership otherwise they belong to the assignee of the Luftwaffe  😉

 

I report: during and after WWII it has been common for soldiers to return home with souvenirs, such as watches, cameras, enemy weapons and flags, while larger military items captured in battle, particularly weaponry such as machine guns and artillery pieces, became the property of the state to which the soldiers responsible for the capture belonged.After the Second World War, the Potsdam Conference authorized the removal of a lot of property from Germany, not only private items but, to say, the merchant marine fleet. Germany, during the war, had removed large quantities of property from the countries that it had occupied. In some cases, for example the Soviet "trophy brigades", official looting was euphemised as the taking of "trophies".
There are tons of published documents about this matter...

[pgk]

32 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Are we allowed to talk about RAF Leicas?

Or RN Reids? Or Elcan lenses? Many specialist European optical businesses have survived as specialist suppliers and often they produce designs for military requirements as part of their range. Its a part of their business. I would say that Leica today is actually relatively unusual for not being involved in such production (as far as we know - few such suppliers advertise the fact for obvious reasons).

[jaapv]

Edited title to avoid misunderstanding.

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

Luftwaffe is fairly neutral I would say. The  present German airforce goes by the name since 1956 without anybody having second thoughts...  And, during that time, presumably has had Leica cameras delivered to them. Are we allowed to talk about RAF Leicas?

If you just stick to the word you may call it neutral.

Someone who cares for history cannot take this neutral point of view. The camera we talk about here was delivered to a "Luftwaffe" which was not the "Luftwaffe" which was re-established in 1956 but which was different: it was an instrument to attack and to kill - nobody can count the casualties of this criminal instrument of german agression. I am sure I don't have to tell you or tranquilo67 what the "Luftwaffe" did in Guernica, Coventry, Rotterdam, Malta, Warschau or Minsk and in so many other places.

And please don't start the "are we allowed" line. I am criticising the forgetfulness about real history which leads to appointing any "value" to items which were delivered to the "Luftwaffe". I am in no position to forbid or allow.

But please allow me to take offence by the thread title "My new Luftwaffe". 

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Rona!d:

Has anybody ever checked to whom a "Luftwaffe" camera does belong today? Cameras were expensive and in most cases not "gifts" to soldiers. If they are in private hands, there must be some kind of official paper about the shift of ownership otherwise they belong to the assignee of the Luftwaffe  😉

 

This is ridiculous. 

Did you ever ask who was owner of a bomb thrown by the "Luftwaffe".

[sabears]

31 minutes ago, UliWer said:

If you just stick to the word you may call it neutral.

Someone who cares for history cannot take this neutral point of view. The camera we talk about here was delivered to a "Luftwaffe" which was not the "Luftwaffe" which was re-established in 1956 but which was different: it was an instrument to attack and to kill - nobody can count the casualties of this criminal instrument of german agression. I am sure I don't have to tell you or tranquilo67 what the "Luftwaffe" did in Guernica, Coventry, Rotterdam, Malta, Warschau or Minsk and in so many other places.

And please don't start the "are we allowed" line. I am criticising the forgetfulness about real history which leads to appointing any "value" to items which were delivered to the "Luftwaffe". I am in no position to forbid or allow.

But please allow me to take offence by the thread title "My new Luftwaffe". 

You knock an open door: sad to say but war crimes are the only thing that really makes us all alike.

To say,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_war_crimes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes

and thousands and thousands more

 

 

 

 

[LUF Admin]

Sorry, I have to step in here.

Too much emotions involved, very difficult topic.

I close this thread and will talk with the moderator team.

Andreas