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On 4/24/2021 at 10:51 AM, jaapv said:

Why do I have a vision of a flying pig, reading this? 

Maybe says something about your visionary capability. But fine, I am out of here. Bye.

 

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Leica lend me for four days the SL2-S + APO-SL 35mm.  After the test I was convinced to wait for the CL2.  SL2-S is crazy big and heavy. But ok with M and TL lenses.  APO-SL 35mm is still too heavy with SL2-S but quite manageable with the CL.    I was happy to give it back, and now be assure to never buy any SL serie cameras.    IQ wise ? SL2-S is fantastic at 12800 and 25000 ISO. Do you need those settings ? If yes definitely buy it.  If not, under 6400 ISO, the IQ is comp

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I don’t know, maybe I missed the point, but I like the CL because it’s small and light. The TL lenses are smallish and lightish, with the trade-off being slower speed. If you want lighter still, then use faster and/or lighter manual lenses. To add autofocus back to M lenses, for instance, to work on the CL seems like walking all three sides of a triangle, only to arrive back where you started.

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On 4/24/2021 at 3:04 PM, Le Chef said:

I don’t know, maybe I missed the point, but I like the CL because it’s small and light. The TL lenses are smallish and lightish, with the trade-off being slower speed. If you want lighter still, then use faster and/or lighter manual lenses. To add autofocus back to M lenses, for instance, to work on the CL seems like walking all three sides of a triangle, only to arrive back where you started.

Which is where I think a mix of TL glass and M glass (maybe even SL) makes a nice complement.  Gives you the option for the AF when you use a TL lens (and manual), OR mount up an M lens for the small and manual.  Crop factor / central portion of the image circle for the M glass ... play that to your given strategy, i.e. my 28/2.8 Elmarit yields a 42mm FOV as a "normal".  I've got a 30/1.4 DG DN for those times when I need faster or AF.  Surprisingly, the Sigma gives up very little optically, just gains some length and girth to get the AF and 1.4.  

Optics are always an exercise in compromises ... somethings always gonna be left out, no matter which way you go.  For me, that means a mix / match kit with some of each, yet none of all.  Best I can tell, that's the only way to "get it all" ... just not all in the same lens. 😉

 

Edited by RustyBug
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Leica lend me for four days the SL2-S + APO-SL 35mm. 
After the test I was convinced to wait for the CL2. 
SL2-S is crazy big and heavy. But ok with M and TL lenses. 
APO-SL 35mm is still too heavy with SL2-S but quite manageable with the CL. 
 

I was happy to give it back, and now be assure to never buy any SL serie cameras. 
 

IQ wise ? SL2-S is fantastic at 12800 and 25000 ISO. Do you need those settings ? If yes definitely buy it. 
If not, under 6400 ISO, the IQ is comparable with CL

Edited by nicci78
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Interesting, Nicci. That is why I didn’t buy the SL2_S though all the specs tempted me much. Having had so many bags full of so many heavy cameras over so many years I have learnt to appreciate the smaller and lighter. What the point in a camera if you don’t want to take it out every day. This is why I have fallen in love with the CL, but also why I’m intrigued by the fpL. Have you tried that?

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Very nice, Nicci.  I liked how you have a grip on the M camera to make it more comparable.  

To be even more fair, the 23mm f2 Summicron on the CL would only extend out to the knurled focusing ring of the 18-56mm Vario-Elmarit!

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13 hours ago, nicci78 said:

APO-SL 35mm is still too heavy with SL2-S but quite manageable with the CL.

Really? To me it looks like a monstrous appendage when fitted to the CL.

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Yes really.
Try to add 780g lens to a 930g body. You’ll end up with 1710g in your hands. 
On the other one it is only 780g + 490g (CL + grip) = 1260g which is definitely more manageable. 

However Summilux-TL 1,4/35mm will be way better than the APO-Summicron-SL 2/35mm : lighter, smaller and faster. 500g instead of 780g. 
A total of 980g for CL + TL35

Edited by nicci78
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9 hours ago, Nick De Marco said:

This is why I have fallen in love with the CL, but also why I’m intrigued by the fpL. Have you tried that?

I did tried the original fp. It was not for me. No mechanical shutter = game over. 
I cannot trust electronic shutter only. It does not perform well enough from time to time in some situations. 
 

fp handling is terrible by the way. CL is better in everyway : small lenses to match the small body, EVF, mechanical shutter, good ergonomics, prettier, good menu system, etc…

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"IQ wise ? SL2-S is fantastic at 12800 and 25000 ISO. Do you need those settings ? If yes definitely buy it. 
If not, under 6400 ISO, the IQ is comparable with CL".

 

I do need these settings so I bought one  :)

I still use my CL  , though I must admit that whilst extremely welcome I find the smaller size and controls small and fiddly compared to those on the SL2S .

The LCD on the top plate especially so .

Edited by Michael Markey
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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I did tried the original fp. It was not for me. No mechanical shutter = game over. 
I cannot trust electronic shutter only. It does not perform well enough from time to time in some situations. 
 

fp handling is terrible by the way. CL is better in everyway : small lenses to match the small body, EVF, mechanical shutter, good ergonomics, prettier, good menu system, etc…

As an owner of the original fp and the CL, a more considered comparison:

  • the electronic shutter is fine unless you need to photograph under certain artificial lights, and certain action photography. It is easy to predict where it will not work well.
  • The absence of an EVF inevitably makes handling difficult, unless you just treat it as a full-frame smart phone. Of course the new EVF (which I've not tried) would make a difference.
  • IQ is much better than the CL, not just because of the larger sensor. Colour and low light performance are better as well.
  • The menu system is better than Leica's: more logical and intuitive. I wish Leica would learn from Sigma.
  • Although I prefer Leica's minimalist buttons, the fp's buttons are functional and logically laid out, all on the back, not randomly splattered over the body.
  • I just use the fp and CL for different things: fp on a tripod, mainly for video, CL for casual/social/travel.
Edited by LocalHero1953
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3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

As an owner of the original fp and the CL, a more considered comparison:

  • the electronic shutter is fine unless you need to photograph under certain artificial lights, and certain action photography. It is easy to predict where it will not work well.
  • The absence of an EVF inevitably makes handling difficult, unless you just treat it as a full-frame smart phone. Of course the new EVF (which I've not tried) would make a difference.
  • IQ is much better than the CL, not just because of the larger sensor. Colour and low light performance are better as well.
  • The menu system is better than Leica's: more logical and intuitive. I wish Leica would learn from Sigma.
  • Although I prefer Leica's minimalist buttons, the fp's buttons are functional and logically laid out, all on the back, not randomly splattered over the body.
  • I just use the fp and CL for different things: fp on a tripod, mainly for video, CL for casual/social/travel.

Interesting thank you. How do you manage to trigger focus magnification with the fp? Just curious.

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8 minutes ago, lct said:

Interesting thank you. How do you manage to trigger focus magnification with the fp? Just curious.

I don't myself - I only use AF lenses, mainly with spot focus. Magnification can be set to Auto (when using the focusing ring) or can be set to magnify using the OK button in the centre of the rear dial. 

Three more attributes which I find useful for video:

  • Direct video recording via USB to SSD.
  • Direct livestreaming video via USB Video Class interface
  • Dummy battery for direct mains power connection. 

I have a narrow range of use scenarios for the fp, but within those, for its size, image quality and L-mount, it has no competitor. The CL has a far wider range of uses, but it cannot do what the fp can do.

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Electronic shutter has more issue than just artificial lights. 
It is also responsible for weird photos due to rolling shutter. 
It will looks strange, it will be particularly unpleasant with people. 
 

Mechanical shutter with high enough shutter speed will provide sharp image without distortion whatsoever. 
Electronic shutter will work most of the time, but will fail you at the most unexpected one. Then no way to recover a weirdly distorted image or a photo with massive banding. 
I chose my camp : mechanical shutter. And I guess that manufacturers too, because every cameras including mighty Sony A1 have one. Except the two Sigma fp and fp L. 

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10 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Electronic shutter has more issue than just artificial lights. 
It is also responsible for weird photos due to rolling shutter. 
It will looks strange, it will be particularly unpleasant with people. 
 

Mechanical shutter with high enough shutter speed will provide sharp image without distortion whatsoever. 
Electronic shutter will work most of the time, but will fail you at the most unexpected one. Then no way to recover a weirdly distorted image or a photo with massive banding. 
I chose my camp : mechanical shutter. And I guess that manufacturers too, because every cameras including mighty Sony A1 have one. Except the two Sigma fp and fp L. 

Slow down and read my post - where I referred to action shots as well as artificial light. The results are entirely foreseeable - I have never found 'unexpected' effects - and as you say, it works most of the time.  

Your comment about a 'camp' is bizarre. This is not warfare, it's just about choosing equipment that does the job for your particular needs. I often set my cameras to electronic shutter because it is totally silent in a music performance; if colour banding is a problem, I simply switch to monochrome, because a mechanical shutter is just not an option.

You have omitted the majority photographic sector that relies entirely on electronic shutters: smartphones.

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I use electronic shutter most of the time on all my non-M cameras and i have never got the least issue so far. I just disable it when there are LEDs around that's all. No problem with action shots either (children) but i don't do sports photography. FWIW.

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13 hours ago, lct said:

I use electronic shutter most of the time on all my non-M cameras and i have never got the least issue so far. I just disable it when there are LEDs around that's all. No problem with action shots either (children) but i don't do sports photography. FWIW.

I'll throw my 10cents in here. On both the CL & SL2 I use the electronic shutter 90% of the time with no issues. As long as one is aware that under certain lighting conditions you will get banding or artefacts, then switch to mechanical shutter, it's very simple. 

 There's no question that there's an element of shutter shock/slap with these cameras, especially with long lenses. The same issue was present in the Sony A7r when I owned it some years ago.

Have a look here:

 

 

 

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