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Leica CL-2


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On 4/18/2021 at 9:07 AM, Boojay said:

Haha.. not sure many of us needed convincing anyway.

As someone who was always a big fan of @tritentrueboth his  knowledge and wonderful bird imagery, I regularly check out his blog.  

Whether I'm disappointed or just hoping he's had bad information I don't know, but he seems convinced there won't be a CL2.  

Could it be that Leica have decided enough is enough for them with APS-C.  Many Leica users (me anyway) see one of the CL's biggest attractions is as a small lightweight EVF body for M lenses, as such there's probably a small market for it in it's current state, I would absolutely replace mine if something happened to it.

 

 

 

 

Question re your last paragraph- as novice to Leica made my choice for CL among other things (undeniable Bauhaus beauty, a viewfinder, SoA CMOS technology surpassing that used in M, ...) based on brochure claim that it opens up to an optical paradise of M lenses. So I got the M2L adapter of course, only to discover a bit late -my bad- that Leica doesn't even pass through its own AF control, nor -shame- enable P and Scn modes. Do all of you Leica M old-timers work mainly manual then?

Just curious as it now makes me kind of eager for a CL2 body, to see in which direction their APS-C strategy develops. Personally I think that product line could be extremely promising for a company like Leica with all that reputedly stellar glassware in store. CMOS R&D seems to suggest the future is for higher resolution (and extra functions) through stacking CMOS rather than by pixel pitch reduction, the latter approaching wavelength of visible light (.6-.7 micron). In the midterm this reduces the relative importance of pure sensor size w.r.t. performance, but that's just a personal guess-- never having worked in optics, electronics, or manufacturing TBH.

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13 minutes ago, RM8 said:

Question re your last paragraph- as novice to Leica made my choice for CL among other things (undeniable Bauhaus beauty, a viewfinder, SoA CMOS technology surpassing that used in M, ...) based on brochure claim that it opens up to an optical paradise of M lenses. So I got the M2L adapter of course, only to discover a bit late -my bad- that Leica doesn't even pass through its own AF control, nor -shame- enable P and Scn modes. Do all of you Leica M old-timers work mainly manual then?

 

Well, wouldn't call myself  a Leica M old-timer 😁 but yes, mainly manual exposure but when feeling lazy or unsure will go to Av and auto iso if I have a coded lens or have selected a suitable lens profile, just as with an M.  Bonus is the EVF and WYSIWYG.

 

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13 minutes ago, RM8 said:

Question re your last paragraph- as novice to Leica made my choice for CL among other things (undeniable Bauhaus beauty, a viewfinder, SoA CMOS technology surpassing that used in M, ...) based on brochure claim that it opens up to an optical paradise of M lenses. So I got the M2L adapter of course, only to discover a bit late -my bad- that Leica doesn't even pass through its own AF control, nor -shame- enable P and Scn modes. Do all of you Leica M old-timers work mainly manual then?

Just curious as it now makes me kind of eager for a CL2 body, to see in which direction their APS-C strategy develops. Personally I think that product line could be extremely promising for a company like Leica with all that reputedly stellar glassware in store. CMOS R&D seems to suggest the future is for higher resolution (and extra functions) through stacking CMOS rather than by pixel pitch reduction, the latter approaching wavelength of visible light (.6-.7 micron). In the midterm this reduces the relative importance of pure sensor size w.r.t. performance, but that's just a personal guess-- never having worked in optics, electronics, or manufacturing TBH.

If you put a M lens on a CL body then, yes, you MUST work in manual focus - no AF is possible with M lenses. And since M lenses only have a manual aperture ring, of course P, S and Scene modes are not possible! The CL-2 will not change this. If you want AF and full auto-exposure, you need TL (or SL) lenses.

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38 minutes ago, RM8 said:

Question re your last paragraph- as novice to Leica made my choice for CL among other things (undeniable Bauhaus beauty, a viewfinder, SoA CMOS technology surpassing that used in M, ...) based on brochure claim that it opens up to an optical paradise of M lenses. So I got the M2L adapter of course, only to discover a bit late -my bad- that Leica doesn't even pass through its own AF control, nor -shame- enable P and Scn modes. Do all of you Leica M old-timers work mainly manual then?

Auto iso in M mode mainly. You choose shutter speed and aperture the same way as you did with film except that the camera sets isos automatically. Best of both worlds. You will need TL lenses for AF and that sort of consumer things ;) though as other old timers :p said above.

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3 hours ago, lct said:

Auto iso in M mode mainly. You choose shutter speed and aperture the same way as you did with film except that the camera sets isos automatically. Best of both worlds. You will need TL lenses for AF and that sort of consumer things ;) though as other old timers :p said above.

Thanks, feels exactly where I am at the moment. After decades of consumer point-and-click things 😎 bought the CL with the 18mm to carry it everywhere and get used to its look-and-feel and re-accustom myself to properly choosing subjects, perspective, and view to frame them in post processing. Then the 60mm Elmarit TL-- still working on that. Became aware why people love Leica. Then a Voigtländer Ultron 35mm f2 all-manual on the M2L adapter to rediscover ancient techniques and skills.

But to return on-topic, am wondering whether Leica did not miss the target when it marketed the CL. After reading 100s of posts on this wonderful forum, looks like 90% or so are by existing Leica (mostly M) users. If the CL was intended to break into new markets (which I suspect) it's hardly visible here. So am curious to see how they approach that issue with a CL2. No signs of that at present unless I'm not in the right loop, yet 4 years is about the normal lifecycle for this kind of product.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

This is a form of false equivalency: you have not counted all the CL owners who do not visit this site and who may never have previously owned a Leica.

Correct. But mind you, it took me 4 months to accidentally discover this forum... Leica does not promote it. Note, I have never ever set foot in a Leica store or talked to a Leica person --because of pandemic rulings of course- maybe there I would have been pointed to it? So imagine that silent multitude of novice CL owners struggling like me with their unfamiliar cameras in the dark haha

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

If you put a M lens on a CL body then, yes, you MUST work in manual focus - no AF is possible with M lenses. And since M lenses only have a manual aperture ring, of course P, S and Scene modes are not possible! The CL-2 will not change this. If you want AF and full auto-exposure, you need TL (or SL) lenses.

Well call me native or correct me if I'm wrong- Leica optical engineers know shape and light profile of the diaphragm the lens projects onto the sensor to as many digits after the decimal point as you want, and of course use this in the programming of their M bodies. The 6-bit coded M2L adapter could EASILY carry this info to the CL (and in reverse carry the current and instructions to a stepper motor, of present, to set the focus) but Leica choose not to do this. My guess is to protect the market for the M10 bodies, at least initially. It will be interesting to see whether the CL has caught on sufficiently outside of the existing Leica old-timers community (NO offence intended! I am well beyond retirement age myself 🤓 ) for them to update that interface coding in the CL2. I'll buy the body immediately!

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1 minute ago, RM8 said:

Well call me native or correct me if I'm wrong- Leica optical engineers know shape and light profile of the diaphragm the lens projects onto the sensor to as many digits after the decimal point as you want, and of course use this in the programming of their M bodies. The 6-bit coded M2L adapter could EASILY carry this info to the CL (and in reverse carry the current and instructions to a stepper motor, of present, to set the focus) but Leica choose not to do this. My guess is to protect the market for the M10 bodies, at least initially. It will be interesting to see whether the CL has caught on sufficiently outside of the existing Leica old-timers community (NO offence intended! I am well beyond retirement age myself 🤓 ) for them to update that interface coding in the CL2. I'll buy the body immediately!

*naive / native

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The AF mount adapter has been made by others (google Techart), but there are some lenses it would not work with, where focusing involves floating lens elements as well as movement of the whole of the main lens cell. There are also some lenses that are physically too heavy for it to work on a reasonably sized adapter - and the larger the lens, the slower the AF.

Leica has chosen not to do it, I guess, but I doubt it's to protect the M10 market - it's more likely they see no need - CL lenses are very good, and designed for AF. M lenses work OK on the CL, but not many people buy them specifically for the CL.

Your naivete is shown by referring to M users as old-timers. The M market appears to have remained steady with new buyers coming in - if they were all old timers, you would expect sales to drop.

Disclaimer: I sold my M240 and then all my M lenses. I prefer to mount TL lenses on my CL. I occasionally put SL lenses on my CL, but generally use lenses on the body they work best on.

 

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44 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The AF mount adapter has been made by others (google Techart), but there are some lenses it would not work with, where focusing involves floating lens elements as well as movement of the whole of the main lens cell. There are also some lenses that are physically too heavy for it to work on a reasonably sized adapter - and the larger the lens, the slower the AF.

Leica has chosen not to do it, I guess, but I doubt it's to protect the M10 market - it's more likely they see no need - CL lenses are very good, and designed for AF. M lenses work OK on the CL, but not many people buy them specifically for the CL.

Your naivete is shown by referring to M users as old-timers. The M market appears to have remained steady with new buyers coming in - if they were all old timers, you would expect sales to drop.

Disclaimer: I sold my M240 and then all my M lenses. I prefer to mount TL lenses on my CL. I occasionally put SL lenses on my CL, but generally use lenses on the body they work best on.

 

Like this reply very much, thanks Paul! As I indicated earlier, "old-timer" was in no way intended to be less than positive. My Shorter Oxford says it's a "person of long experience in a place or position"

--Robert

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16 hours ago, RM8 said:

Correct. But mind you, it took me 4 months to accidentally discover this forum... Leica does not promote it. Note, I have never ever set foot in a Leica store or talked to a Leica person --because of pandemic rulings of course- maybe there I would have been pointed to it? So imagine that silent multitude of novice CL owners struggling like me with their unfamiliar cameras in the dark haha

 

 

 

 

 

This forum has no commercial ties with Leica.

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15 hours ago, RM8 said:

Well call me native or correct me if I'm wrong- Leica optical engineers know shape and light profile of the diaphragm the lens projects onto the sensor to as many digits after the decimal point as you want, and of course use this in the programming of their M bodies

This is quite fanciful and  would be a rather esoteric way of transmitting an aperture value. No, Leica does not use this in their M bodies.
The M cameras have an outside light metering cell, which -amongst other things- enables the camera to compare the ambient light with the amount of light falling onto the sensor, to calculate the aperture value. This calculation is imprecise at best.
The six-bit coding only identifies the lens type to the camera. Nor is there any way of setting the lens aperture -which is mechanical- by the camera.
 

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1 minute ago, jaapv said:

This is quite fanciful and  would be a rather esoteric way of transmitting an aperture value. No, Leica does not use this in their M bodies.
The M cameras have an outside light metering cell, which -amongst other things- enables the camera to compare the ambient light with the amount of light falling onto the sensor, to calculate the aperture value. This calculation is imprecise at best.
The six-bit coding only identifies the lens type to the camera. Nor is there any way of setting the lens aperture -which is mechanical- by the camera.
 

Thanks! Interesting. Learning every day.

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25 minutes ago, jaapv said:

This forum has no commercial ties with Leica.

Thanks for pointing this out. Didn't expect any. But this forum is a goldmine for people new to Leica. In non-pandemic times I would have bought my camera in a store and maybe sb. would have pointed me to it

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On 4/20/2021 at 9:50 AM, jaapv said:

This is quite fanciful and  would be a rather esoteric way of transmitting an aperture value. No, Leica does not use this in their M bodies.
The M cameras have an outside light metering cell, which -amongst other things- enables the camera to compare the ambient light with the amount of light falling onto the sensor, to calculate the aperture value. This calculation is imprecise at best.
The six-bit coding only identifies the lens type to the camera. Nor is there any way of setting the lens aperture -which is mechanical- by the camera.
 

@jaapv's reply turns out to be an epiphany for me. I had completely misunderstood the 6-bit coding of M lenses (I don't own one nor seen one live) assuming they were part of a sophisticated communication somehow using the 10-pin connector one finds in the L-mount. Did some research, was a bit shocked to find out it apparently is just six black-and-white lacquered stripes in machined recesses in the back flange of most M-mounts, providing a 0-63 binary numeric key into Leica's resource of M lens data as stored in the M10 -and likely in the CL as it seems to know these "profiles". Waw, just 6 bits, in 2009?! Leaves the question what those 10 contacts in the L mount are for. Observing that e.g. USB 3.0 can process huge amounts of data ultra fast with just 6 pins, my idea of fanciful (thanks for that compliment @jaapv! 😉) did not even reach out to what could be possible with that. Studying my M2L adapter now, there's just the tiny slit in the M-sided flange with 6 even tinier sensors behind it. Not too promising this. Maybe the 10-connector is overkill for today's TL lenses (just AF and aperture sensing) but could indicate a lot of future promise --video, 3D rendering, special apps, ... maybe even the better data-enabled M lenses of the next generation (now THAT I admit is beyond fanciful 🤠) --all spells out a great future for the CL3 😎

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1 hour ago, RM8 said:

just 6 bits, in 2009?

M lenses are manual lenses and will remain so hopefully. There are L and TL lenses for AF and other auto things. For manual lenses the body needs to know the ID of the lens and 6 bit is enough for that AFAIK. 

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