28mm Elmarit v2 (1970's)

[bdolzani]

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Hi all, this lens is available at a local online shop (not a storefront though) and it's been intriguing me. $1200. I tend towards vintage/less expensive lenses, and 35mm is my sweet spot (have 35 3.5 summaron and 35 summicron v2), however I've been more curious about 28 lately. 

I realize from a little searching on the forum that the v2 is pretty much the lame duck, however I've also heard it has a character-full look, which I'd like. The asph's size would obviously be better but I can't really do $2500 or so for that, unless I knew I love love 28mm. Which I'm not sure. 

Any thoughts or personal reviews or photos? I gather it's a bit large and probably blocks the finder a good bit?

thanks-

Brian 

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[pgk]

I can't help you with v.2 but I have owned and used a v.1 which was simply too poor a performer to be really useful. Edges and corners were soft. I've also owned a v.3 and again it was not the best performing 28mm lens. You should also be aware that these older 28s can be tricky to get serviced and I think that I'm right in saying that spares availability is limited. All that said, if you keep an eye out you can find them at the prices they should be at (that is lower to refect their performance) and if they are reasonable enough they are worth buying if you like a 'vintage' look. $1200 sounds a bit high but then Leica lens prices have climbed since I last had any 28mm pre-aspherc lenses. FWIW a London dealer has this in stock: https://www.apertureuk.com/pre-owned/leica/leica-m-lenses/ and it is still sealed in the box. Whilst it is higher in price than the one you have quoted, the price should tell you that a used copy should be significantly less and there are a number for around the £800 mark and just over in London dealers at the moment.

[Ivar B]

I would not recommend buying this one. The high price is due to rarity only, and it is not due to special qualities. 

This is a lens sought after by collectors and not really users. You could perhaps look for a version 4 if you want to spend less money. Optically it is very good, and not that expensive. A bit larger than the ASPH, though, but as a user little speaks in favour of v2.

 

[bdolzani]

@pgk @Ivar B thank you both. That link is helpful pgk - the one I'm looking at does have orig box and hood, so it's a very similar package. Considered mint-. 

However like you said Ivar the still-high cost is probably due to rarity, which is a difficult line to determine sometimes. I really appreciate you both and will probably curb my enthusiasm.

I do like to collect a bit, that's the draw of leica, however my first determination is absolutely as a user.

 

[a.noctilux]

7,050 assigned numbers said Wiki

...

link to Marco Cavina's 28mm lenses, in Italian

Edited February 18, 2021 by a.noctilux

[BradS]

28mm is my most used focal length. If you are a user, I'd suggest the Zeiss 28mm f/2.8 Biogon. They are excellent performers and are considerably less expensive.

[bdolzani]

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6 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

7,050 assigned numbers said Wiki

...

link to Marco Cavina's 28mm lenses, in Italian

and up from $850 in 2010 ;-). 

[84bravo]

Price seems high considering that you can find a V3 for around $1000 and a V4 for around $1400. Both are much better lenses than the V2 and the V4 is excellent. If you're patient you can find both of those lenses cheaper.

I have a V4 that I bought new in the 90's and a V2 that I bought used about three years ago only because it was very cheap. I think I paid $600 for it, which is about what it's worth.

[bdolzani]

3 minutes ago, 84bravo said:

Price seems high considering that you can find a V3 for around $1000 and a V4 for around $1400. Both are much better lenses than the V2 and the V4 is excellent. If you're patient you can find both of those lenses cheaper.

I have a V4 that I bought new in the 90's and a V2 that I bought used about three years ago only because it was very cheap. I think I paid $600 for it, which is about what it's worth.

thanks for this, very helpful and makes sense. I would love to still find something old(er) and more classic. I would consider the v4 at that price. 

It's hard to read old rangefinderforum (for example) threads from 10 years ago when everything was half the price and they still thought it was high. Crazy. 

[adan]

Some points:

1) It was the version one of the 28 Elmarit that became very expensive as a collectors' item among Far East collectors from about 1980-2000. (Up to $4500 dollars, when a new M film body was less than $2000)

The one that was a symmetrical Super-angulon/Biogon-type formula (but did not meter on the M5, and is iffy even metering on the M6, etc. - the very deep rear element blocks the light path). And relatively rare (3200 made).

28mm Elmarit version 1.

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I tried a used version 1 about 1979 (just before the prices skyrocketed) and it introduced me to the whole "sharp-contrasty Leica look" - I had to start cutting back my developing times.

The replacement version 2 that did work on the M5 was never especially pricey (once superceded in 1980), because of the optical compromises (retrofocus design) needed to allow metering. The first such wide-angle design made for the M (and there was a learning curve).

2) On the one hand, the version 2 - when I tried one around 1981 (very cheap, $500 or so) - drove me away from Leica M for a couple of decades. It is quite fuzzy towards the corners at f/2.8 - f/4. Just not up to the available-darkness news/documentary work I was pursuing then, since it was only fully sharp at f/5.6 or smaller.

(And I hate to pop people's bubbles - but "just plain fuzzy" does not equal "character." Otherwise Lomo and Diana would rule the industry.)

3) On the other hand, I ran across another version 2 a couple of years back, and on digital very much liked the lower contrast once one stopped down enough for sharpness. Added at least a stop of dynamic range to my M10. While retaining mid-tone punch. A very "open" lens even in the harshest light..

And while it cannot be 6-bit coded (too early), its strong retrofocus design avoids the M-wide-angle color-vignetting that requires 6-bit coding in the first place. It worked fine whether ID'ed as a 28, or a 90, or a 50, or a 135. (In the sample below, as a 135 Tele-Elmar). It also has nice warm color overall (lots of Absorban UV-absorbing cement inside). While I generally use a version 3, the V.2 "keeps pulling me back in" for certain work.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by adan

[bdolzani]

@adan Hey Andy this is very appreciated, and timely, as I just saw your posting on the Non-digital 28 Look thread. I'm pretty torn, and even though the first couple people said to skip it, over the last few hours I've gotten interested again...your images look good to me...I would use it mostly on film, but I wobble between film + digital at the moment. 

Just like anything the only way to know might be to try it - return period is 15 days. However I don't like quick judgements. Thing is, it could be a hard sell if down the road I decide against it. I don't think it's in much demand. I tend to be attracted to the oddball stuff, and try to wrestle some art out of it. 

 

[Musotographer]

In 2019 I was lucky enough to find a v4, coded, at £500. It was cheap because cosmetically it is very scruffy - but as it is optically perfect that didn't bother me at all. I find it a marvellous lens and it has become one of my favourites, much more so than my previous Asph. v1 ever was. If you're patient you may find a reasonably priced one as I did!

Edited February 19, 2021 by Musotographer

[bdolzani]

6 hours ago, Musotographer said:

In 2019 I was lucky enough to find a v4, coded, at £500. It was cheap because cosmetically it is very scruffy - but as it is optically perfect that didn't bother me at all. I find it a marvellous lens and it has become one of my favourites, much more so than my previous Asph. v1 ever was. If you're patient you may find a reasonably priced one as I did!

that's a great deal indeed! I realize a new Zeiss 28 2.8 is literally the same price, however that's a much less exciting option, as I see it. However I don't like overspending on gear just because it can be asked for. 

[84bravo]

Something to keep in mind is that most of the V2 lenses bring up 35mm frame lines as they were made before the M4-P, which was the first M body with 28mm frame lines.

However, some bring up 28mm frames and there doesn't seem to be a consistent way to tell which ones will do that. I think only a small percentage will trigger the proper frames. I got lucky with mine and it frames for 28.

[bdolzani]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:35 PM, 84bravo said:

Something to keep in mind is that most of the V2 lenses bring up 35mm frame lines as they were made before the M4-P, which was the first M body with 28mm frame lines.

However, some bring up 28mm frames and there doesn't seem to be a consistent way to tell which ones will do that. I think only a small percentage will trigger the proper frames. I got lucky with mine and it frames for 28.

Hey @84bravo thank you - I emailed the seller when I was first interested and he did offer up that it does bring up the 28mm lines. Glad about that. I’m still curious to try this old lens. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by bdolzani

[tedd]

I can't help much with the lenses you mentioned, but I really liked the ZM 28 2.8 on colour neg film but not a lot else. I've now got an Elmarit version IV and I love it, on digital M in particular. 

[roma]

I used V2 for a while and it has classic beautiful rendering unlike any other lens with Tri-X. Edges and corners are pretty soft wide open. Where it really stinks is how it flares because the front element protrudes so much. Even the lens hood is not very helpful.
V3 is a better choice, I think. It draws in between V2 and ASPH. V4 draws, pretty much, like ASPH but larger in size. 

[bdolzani]

10 hours ago, roma said:

I used V2 for a while and it has classic beautiful rendering unlike any other lens with Tri-X. Edges and corners are pretty soft wide open. Where it really stinks is how it flares because the front element protrudes so much. Even the lens hood is not very helpful.
V3 is a better choice, I think. It draws in between V2 and ASPH. V4 draws, pretty much, like ASPH but larger in size. 

Thanks Roma, glad you have experience with it. It sounds like a lens I'd like, the flare wouldn't bother me too much perhaps. I wish it were a little less $, I would snap it up. Just debating if I should spend as much as they are asking. It's a reputable and local source, and trouble is you can't just as easily find other versions without resorting to eBay and overseas, often...which I don't prefer. 

Edited February 22, 2021 by bdolzani

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[roma]

Just so you know, you'll get flare even if the sun is far to your left or right and it will cut your image in half. Half will look ok, the other half will have a nasty flare, not a pretty

kind :-). I was using that lens back when I was still only using film and it would surprise me sometimes (not in a good way) when I didn't expect it.

If you plan to use the lens on a digital camera where you can preview what it will look like, you should be fine. It does have a classic beautiful rendering.

[bdolzani]

21 hours ago, roma said:

Just so you know, you'll get flare even if the sun is far to your left or right and it will cut your image in half. Half will look ok, the other half will have a nasty flare, not a pretty

kind :-). I was using that lens back when I was still only using film and it would surprise me sometimes (not in a good way) when I didn't expect it.

If you plan to use the lens on a digital camera where you can preview what it will look like, you should be fine. It does have a classic beautiful rendering.

Ok well that does not in fact sound good! I appreciate your comments. It would be mostly film, but would be helpful to use any lens with both mediums.