M10-P Rangefinder Drifting?

[nuc001]

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Hi,

I've entered the world of Leica for a year or so with the Q2, after ditching photography and my Nikon D90 for 5-6 years. This forum has been a great source of information for me from the beginning when researching about the Q2, and has also most certainly fueled some GAS. Well one thing led to another and now I have the Q2 plus an M10-P and 35 Summilux FLE + 50 Summilux ASPH. 

I got the 50 first and have been using it exclusively for the past 9 months (Only got the 35 last month). However, in the beginning of Jan 2021, I've noticed that I could not get as reliable focus with the 50 at F1.4 as I used to, even shots between 3-5m at F8 were out of focus dead centre. I did some research and testing and found out that the rangefinder patch did not align at infinity (got close but stops short). This happens with both the 35 and the 50, so it went off to get adjusted at Leica here in Bangkok. 

After adjustment everything seemed to be ok. Rangefinder patch now align at infinity for both lenses (vertical still slightly off but not an issue) and I could focus reliably with the 50 at 1.4 again, even at minimum distance of 0.7m. However, some shots at 2-3 meters now seem a bit off. But yesterday, F2 shots from 0.7m were slightly blurry, and all shots at F2 from 2-5 meters were off. When zoomed in the photos are not sharp at all. 

I then did a little test, taking photos slightly before the rangefinder patch aligned, which produced even blurrier pictures, and taking photos a bit pass the rangefinder patch alignment (about 1mm i.e. compensating for front focusing issues). The pictures taken with the rangefinder patch slightly past alignment were extremely sharp, as the 50 Summilux ASPH should be, and was when I first got it. I then swapped in the 35 Summilux FLE and did the same test at F1.4,  resulting in photos identical in sharpness. I am aware that the DOF difference of the 35 may be masking any effects that are shown on the 50, as the DOF of 35 at F1.4 is 60cm, and 50 at F2 is 40cm. Unfortunately I don't have any long Leica lenses to test with. 

M10-P is still within it's 2 year warranty, bought 2nd hand but no dings or anything suggesting it has been dropped. Worked perfectly for the past 8 months as well. Both lenses were bought new and within warranty. Wondering what it might be. Maybe I need to send both the body for calibration again, but this time together with the 50 Summilux? I am really hoping that the lens does not have to go back to Germany. 

[jaapv]

I think it is possible that you lens needs to be adjusted. The Summilux 50 asph is known for calibration issues, due to the exceedingly tight tolerances in the floating element mechanism. If the problem is with the lens you can find out by mounting a lens with known correct calibration.

OTOH, the adjustment of the rangefinder is basically done at two places, the roller wheel and the internal screw of the arm. The roller wheel is for infinity and can be done in DIY. The screw is for close-up and is slightly more difficult. It may be that Leica only adjusted infinity.

There is also the possibility that you bent the arm slightly by hitting the roller  when mounting a lens. In that case the mid-range will be off.

It is always wise to send both lens(es) and camera in in, to enable the technician to determine the cause of the adjustment problem.

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[nuc001]

Thank you very much Jaapv. I did search for a long time regarding lens calibration issues for the Summilux 50 ASPH...but that would not explain why it worked straight out of the box the first time. Although as I don't have any other longer lenses, if I calibrate the M10-P body to the lens, the 35 FLE should still work as the DOF should be able to cover any calibration errors, if I understand correctly. 

16 hours ago, jaapv said:

OTOH, the adjustment of the rangefinder is basically done at two places, the roller wheel and the internal screw of the arm. The roller wheel is for infinity and can be done in DIY. The screw is for close-up and is slightly more difficult. It may be that Leica only adjusted infinity.

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the thread about adjusting the rangefinder for the M9, but I don't think I have the skill to go it alone. Yes I think Leica only adjusted the infinity, as when I looked back at the photos taken straight after I got the camera back, it was already front-focusing. However, it was an interior shot of a room and so was not that obvious. Portraits at minimum focus distance was spot-on that day so I thought there were no issues. 

16 hours ago, jaapv said:

There is also the possibility that you bent the arm slightly by hitting the roller  when mounting a lens. In that case the mid-range will be off.

Probably this! There were no issues when I had the Summilux 50 basically glued to the body...the issue only surfaced when I was testing potential new lenses and settled on one. I am really bad with mounting lenses, never manage to get it on the first try. I have nudged it slightly on occasion but I did not realise that the mechanism would be so fragile though.

I focused on the crosshairs in the attached pic at 1.4 from 2 meters away on a tripod at 1/125, and it really is front focusing by quite a lot. I think I'll need to send both the lens and body in for calibration and see how that goes.

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[mujk]

The M10 rangefinder does not go out of calibration that easily and should be better than previous models in this respect. In fact, I have never needed to adjust mine, even after having manged to drop the camera twice (which is not usual for me). For example, my M9 rangefinder needed adjustment every now and then.

So your description of the problem sounds a bit strange to me, particularly the problem reappearing after a short time. @jaapv pointed out a few possible reasons, but I would even suspect that there is something loose inside the rangefinder mechanism, even if I have never heard about that this could happen.

[Tobers]

This is why I quit the M world. This finicky rangefinder adjustment situation killed the user experience for me, even though I loved my M9, M240 and M10 bodies. There seemed no point getting the Lux lenses when you couldn’t focus them properly wide open.

I did end up doing some rangefinder adjustment myself (it’s actually not very hard). But for those expecting pixel-peeper levels of sharpness consistently at f/1.4 you may be disappointed.

Edited February 14, 2021 by Tobers

[dkmoore]

21 hours ago, Tobers said:

This is why I quit the M world. This finicky rangefinder adjustment situation killed the user experience for me, even though I loved my M9, M240 and M10 bodies. There seemed no point getting the Lux lenses when you couldn’t focus them properly wide open.

I did end up doing some rangefinder adjustment myself (it’s actually not very hard). But for those expecting pixel-peeper levels of sharpness consistently at f/1.4 you may be disappointed.

If this were the case across the vast majority of the M users, the M line would be RIP. 
 

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve had my rangefinder issues but once they are adjusted correctly everything is fine and easy to pixel peep. 

[Maarten]

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The stability of the M10 body and the focusing mechanism have proven itself. There are few records that the M10 goes out of alignment spontaneously.
What I do not like is that your camera was serviced but the vertical misalignment was not corrected.
A proper Leica service will not oversee something like that. I suspect the problem is bit deeper and needs to be investigated.
Otherwise you are never going to be happy with your camera.

[jaapv]

On 2/8/2021 at 9:57 AM, nuc001 said:

Hi,

I've entered the world of Leica for a year or so with the Q2, after ditching photography and my Nikon D90 for 5-6 years. This forum has been a great source of information for me from the beginning when researching about the Q2, and has also most certainly fueled some GAS. Well one thing led to another and now I have the Q2 plus an M10-P and 35 Summilux FLE + 50 Summilux ASPH. 

I got the 50 first and have been using it exclusively for the past 9 months (Only got the 35 last month). However, in the beginning of Jan 2021, I've noticed that I could not get as reliable focus with the 50 at F1.4 as I used to, even shots between 3-5m at F8 were out of focus dead centre. I did some research and testing and found out that the rangefinder patch did not align at infinity (got close but stops short). This happens with both the 35 and the 50, so it went off to get adjusted at Leica here in Bangkok. 

After adjustment everything seemed to be ok. Rangefinder patch now align at infinity for both lenses (vertical still slightly off but not an issue) and I could focus reliably with the 50 at 1.4 again, even at minimum distance of 0.7m. However, some shots at 2-3 meters now seem a bit off. But yesterday, F2 shots from 0.7m were slightly blurry, and all shots at F2 from 2-5 meters were off. When zoomed in the photos are not sharp at all. 

I then did a little test, taking photos slightly before the rangefinder patch aligned, which produced even blurrier pictures, and taking photos a bit pass the rangefinder patch alignment (about 1mm i.e. compensating for front focusing issues). The pictures taken with the rangefinder patch slightly past alignment were extremely sharp, as the 50 Summilux ASPH should be, and was when I first got it. I then swapped in the 35 Summilux FLE and did the same test at F1.4,  resulting in photos identical in sharpness. I am aware that the DOF difference of the 35 may be masking any effects that are shown on the 50, as the DOF of 35 at F1.4 is 60cm, and 50 at F2 is 40cm. Unfortunately I don't have any long Leica lenses to test with. 

M10-P is still within it's 2 year warranty, bought 2nd hand but no dings or anything suggesting it has been dropped. Worked perfectly for the past 8 months as well. Both lenses were bought new and within warranty. Wondering what it might be. Maybe I need to send both the body for calibration again, but this time together with the 50 Summilux? I am really hoping that the lens does not have to go back to Germany. 

Germany is only one UPS day away...

[nuc001]

On 2/15/2021 at 2:02 AM, mujk said:

The M10 rangefinder does not go out of calibration that easily and should be better than previous models in this respect. In fact, I have never needed to adjust mine, even after having manged to drop the camera twice (which is not usual for me). For example, my M9 rangefinder needed adjustment every now and then.

So your description of the problem sounds a bit strange to me, particularly the problem reappearing after a short time. @jaapv pointed out a few possible reasons, but I would even suspect that there is something loose inside the rangefinder mechanism, even if I have never heard about that this could happen.

That is what I thought. But after asking around locally there have been various cases of people having to send their M10s and M10-Ps in for adjustment already, even without dropping them. Maybe it's the heat and humidity? 😆

I think there's definitely something loose inside the camera. I adjusted the horizontal focus myself just to see what's up, and the next day it was off again. I've since sent it in to a local 3rd party Leica repair shop for a full CLA (There's also dust in the viewfinder, amongst other things). Will see when it comes back next month whether the issue has been solved. 

On 2/15/2021 at 3:35 AM, Tobers said:

This is why I quit the M world. This finicky rangefinder adjustment situation killed the user experience for me, even though I loved my M9, M240 and M10 bodies. There seemed no point getting the Lux lenses when you couldn’t focus them properly wide open.

I did end up doing some rangefinder adjustment myself (it’s actually not very hard). But for those expecting pixel-peeper levels of sharpness consistently at f/1.4 you may be disappointed.

This is my first M. I love it but I can now see why some have 2nd bodies. I'll make do with the Q2 for now whilst waiting for the repairs.

7 hours ago, Maarten said:

The stability of the M10 body and the focusing mechanism have proven itself. There are few records that the M10 goes out of alignment spontaneously.
What I do not like is that your camera was serviced but the vertical misalignment was not corrected.
A proper Leica service will not oversee something like that. I suspect the problem is bit deeper and needs to be investigated.
Otherwise you are never going to be happy with your camera.

Apparently Leica Thailand do not have the necessary equipment to do anything about focusing issues. They have to send everything to Singapore. 😅 Costs $600 just for P&P and reimport tax as I bought the camera in HK and this is not covered by the warranty. 

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Germany is only one UPS day away...

From Thailand I'd imagine it will take a bit longer 😝 and about $300 of P&P & insurance and $1,000 reimport tax if I'm unlucky. Long turnaround times are more of a concern with sending it back there though...