Leica M (or Q) for Pro and Serious Work

[Guest]

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But to return the the original posted question my Q V1 has proved to be a very solidly performing camera, no troubles at all, very reliable and good imagery............I still don't like an EVF and would rather not to have to use one, but the camera itself has done well for me and even though I don't feel the need to trade it up for the V2 I don't regret buying the original Q, it's been very useful.

[Dennis]

 Entirely switching to Leica, it's hard depending on where one lives. I live in Mexico, no Leica stores or repair retailers unless I travel abroad; if something happens to my M10, not sure what to do. My first limitation to use only Leica for all my work is based on the gear I have. I would need a few more lenses, spare batteries, and most importantly, a second body. It's a lot to invest in.
But under general conditions, having enough gear, I could use Leica exclusively. I'm still learning and understanding my path with Leica, who knows what will happen soon.
Just for your records, take a look at this thread too, if you are interested to know more about M10 and pushing its limits, I asked a few questions. 🙂

 

 

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[LondonL]

4 hours ago, Dennis said:

 Entirely switching to Leica, it's hard depending on where one lives. I live in Mexico, no Leica stores or repair retailers unless I travel abroad; if something happens to my M10, not sure what to do. My first limitation to use only Leica for all my work is based on the gear I have. I would need a few more lenses, spare batteries, and most importantly, a second body. It's a lot to invest in.
But under general conditions, having enough gear, I could use Leica exclusively. I'm still learning and understanding my path with Leica, who knows what will happen soon.
Just for your records, take a look at this thread too, if you are interested to know more about M10 and pushing its limits, I asked a few questions. 🙂

 

 

Thank, that was an interesting read.

did you get the M10 in the end? How is it working out for you?

your website is fantastic. Obviously great images, but the website itself is fantastic to navigate and very interactive. Who made it?

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

7 hours ago, petermullett said:

Everyone's experience can be different, I don't think that there are any absolute rules, so much can depend on how the equipment is used, who's using it and under what conditions. I've used Leica M's since the late sixties, professionally, Nikons too. The Nikons were utterly reliable, never let me down on jobs throughout the world with nothing more than the very occasional CLA, the film Leica M's too needed occasional mechanical servicing keep going but the Nikons just a cleaning every couple of years or so was all that was required. I have two Nikon Ftn's that were my workhorses from that era and they still function perfectly, well except for the Ftn's exposure meter but that was never to be relied on from new anyway. Back to the Leica's. The film Leica M' s that I owned and used were reliable enough to work as second cameras to the Nikons on jobs / assignments and they were M2's, M3's, M4's, M6's, M7's and MP's......but when the M's started to become digital that's when the reliability took a hit in my experience. I've had most of the digital M's from the M8 to the present M10-M and only one of them has never been back to Wetzlar for attention, some more than a few times, so there is that.........How long it will take for the digital M to be as reliable as it's film predecessor for "pro" usage I don't know, but in my own experience it's not there yet and I'd never go on a job with them as my only choice of equipment, ( though my Q V1 has proved to be very reliable ). They are truly beautiful cameras to use and I'd rather not ever be without an M, but like the early Jaguars it's better to own two of them if you want to be sure that one will work when you need it. 

 

For much of my early photographic career I either needed two bodies (weddings) or worked remotely. Ducking into Canon wasn't an option. Nor was getting a camera that failed on a Friday ready for a Sunday wedding. So I have always been self sufficient and everything has had a redundancy, always. When I switched to M9's I kept a Canon body. When I switched to a pair of M240's I kept an M9. Same with lenses, lighting etc. Always had a spare 50mm and backed up zooms with primes, etc. Occasionally it was handy to have a zoom lens or something longer, like when hanging out of a helicopter but I was the other way. An SLR was a second camera to an M.

I've had an M9 in for a couple of sensor replacements but they were in the off season. The same with an SL. Had two bodies so just kept on shooting. Neither failed during a shoot. For me I've sent more M lenses in than anything else. The only recurring issue can be rangefinder alignment but I can do that myself as long as the throw ratio arm hasn't moved (it never has) so it's just infinity and vertical, which are easy. Had a bunch of M lenses in over the years and a couple of S lenses as well.

Right now I'm drowning in cameras. Got a couple from almost every brand. I've taken a couple of years off and there's so much interesting gear around I want to try out. My daily carry is still a pair of M's (M10 R&M) and I do most of what little work I do with an SL2. If I go back to working I intend to change things up. Shoot mostly in medium format unless there's a real good reason (TS lenses perhaps?) or with the M's when I can. The SL2 is amazing. But I do miss working with the M's.

Gordon

[M11 for me]

For me its essentiel to have 2 card slots. Yes, cards never fail but sometimes they do. When it matters then the M is not the solution. 

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

For much of my early photographic career I either needed two bodies (weddings) or worked remotely. Ducking into Canon wasn't an option. Nor was getting a camera that failed on a Friday ready for a Sunday wedding. So I have always been self sufficient and everything has had a redundancy, always. When I switched to M9's I kept a Canon body. When I switched to a pair of M240's I kept an M9. Same with lenses, lighting etc. Always had a spare 50mm and backed up zooms with primes, etc. Occasionally it was handy to have a zoom lens or something longer, like when hanging out of a helicopter but I was the other way. An SLR was a second camera to an M.

I've had an M9 in for a couple of sensor replacements but they were in the off season. The same with an SL. Had two bodies so just kept on shooting. Neither failed during a shoot. For me I've sent more M lenses in than anything else. The only recurring issue can be rangefinder alignment but I can do that myself as long as the throw ratio arm hasn't moved (it never has) so it's just infinity and vertical, which are easy. Had a bunch of M lenses in over the years and a couple of S lenses as well.

Right now I'm drowning in cameras. Got a couple from almost every brand. I've taken a couple of years off and there's so much interesting gear around I want to try out. My daily carry is still a pair of M's (M10 R&M) and I do most of what little work I do with an SL2. If I go back to working I intend to change things up. Shoot mostly in medium format unless there's a real good reason (TS lenses perhaps?) or with the M's when I can. The SL2 is amazing. But I do miss working with the M's.

Gordon

Out of curiosity did you find the lenses needed calibration due to bumps and knocks or just from use? I'm kinda surprised which is why I ask. My unfortunate ratio has been more like 50/50 but maybe that is because I don't adjust the rangefinder myself. 

The rangefinder needing adjustment is literally my only qualm with the M10R & M10M. 

[Dennis]

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4 hours ago, LondonL said:

your website is fantastic. Obviously great images, but the website itself is fantastic to navigate and very interactive. Who made it?

Thank you so much, glad you like it. It's a team work,  a few people from around the globe working together. It's been a long journey. But I'm happy. If you browse the journal

2 hours ago, M10 for me said:

For me its essentiel to have 2 card slots. Yes, cards never fail but sometimes they do. When it matters then the M is not the solution. 

I'm with you 100% on this. But this doesn't stop me from using only Leica M. What about the film photographer? D they have a 2bd film back up with the same photos? I don't think so.
It's not risky at all. It just can happen once or for negligence. Although I always shoot in raw in both cards since I used a camera with a 2nd slot, I never had a single problem with any San Disk Pro Extreme cards. So, why suffer before being bitten? Use small cards and back up on the road. Problem solved.

 

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

21 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Out of curiosity did you find the lenses needed calibration due to bumps and knocks or just from use? I'm kinda surprised which is why I ask. My unfortunate ratio has been more like 50/50 but maybe that is because I don't adjust the rangefinder myself. 

The rangefinder needing adjustment is literally my only qualm with the M10R & M10M. 

Things have improved, a lot. For a while I'd buy a lens and basically need it calibrated immediately. That was in the M9 days when they were struggling to get stock out and there was a lens shortage. The last couple have been spot on. Only user error in that time. Had some S lenses in for new focus cogs and one out of alignment. SL lenses have been flawless except when I dropped a 16-35. Ouch! God, it's painful waiting five months for a recalibration of a 24mm though!

Basic rangefinder adjustment only needs a 2mm allen key and a little pick to get the red dot off for vertical adjustments. Worth learning and not really difficult. Especially useful when travelling (whenever that is).

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

23 hours ago, M10 for me said:

For me its essentiel to have 2 card slots. Yes, cards never fail but sometimes they do. When it matters then the M is not the solution. 

Redundancy IS important. When I shot weddings we had two photographers with two cameras each. Redundancy was built in. Probably because we started with film and film is unreliable. We just carried our system through to digital, which only had one CF card slot (anyone remember bending a pin in the slot?). We still use smaller cards and change regularly. Two slots is better for sure but I know of more photographers who have either lost their cards or had their cards/gear stolen than I do of card failures.

But it was the main reason I transitioned from M to SL for weddings. Can't reshoot those.

Gordon

p.s. I do have two weddings to shoot this year, after a long break. Will almost certainly be shooting with M's.

[jaapv]

On 2/11/2021 at 12:29 AM, dkmoore said:

Out of curiosity did you find the lenses needed calibration due to bumps and knocks or just from use? I'm kinda surprised which is why I ask. My unfortunate ratio has been more like 50/50 but maybe that is because I don't adjust the rangefinder myself. 

The rangefinder needing adjustment is literally my only qualm with the M10R & M10M. 

It is very hard to impossible to  knock an M lens out of calibration. If you really crash it it might shift an element or suffer other mechanical damage, but the shims that are used for lens calibration will always stay in place. Since the 240 it is also very hard to maladjust a rangefinder. Normally on older types M the vertical calibration could shift when subjected to a knock or vibration, but as Leica modified the design, that is next to impossible nowadays. Once calibrated it will stay that way under all normal - and even severe- circumstances. There could (rarely) be user damage on the roller arm if you mount a lens carelessly or, as I once experienced, a piece of fluff can settle in the roller bearing.

[Ko.Fe.]

On 2/3/2021 at 4:02 AM, LondonL said:

Hi all,

A question about the M10, or any M digital or Q Leica camera really. How many of you are pro photographers (get paid for your images) or do serious photo projects and choose to use an M or Q ahead of any other camera brand? I'm not really interested in the standard travel/family/street images which frankly, any camera can capture well, its more aimed at those of use your work for specific serious work or projects.

Why do you choose the Leica, do you have other gear for more professional shoots? A client never cares about how an image was made, they just want good photography.

Be interested in your comments and personal stories

I hear you. But partially. 

Where I'm the only photog with Leica M on events I'm attending is … me. Why? It is G7 country, but no service, not even official Leica store. '

Also.... travel/family/street equalization of yours just baffled me.  

I personally know Chicago based photog who switched from DSLRS to Ms and it still keeps him paid. All he does for living is taking pictures with Ms.

But after work he is out on Chicago streets and takes it "as specific serious work or projects". He is recognized for his street work. 

Another example is Elliot Erwitt. I have no idea which cameras his used for paid job. I don't even have interest in his pictures from assignments, contracts.  

While on brakes, before and after, no job he took all of the pictures I care for. And those were taken with M.

https://www.anothermag.com/design-living/2176/elliott-erwitts-dogs

https://www.amazon.ca/Personal-Best-Elliott-Erwitt/dp/3961711593

[dkmoore]

3 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Things have improved, a lot. For a while I'd buy a lens and basically need it calibrated immediately. That was in the M9 days when they were struggling to get stock out and there was a lens shortage. The last couple have been spot on. Only user error in that time. Had some S lenses in for new focus cogs and one out of alignment. SL lenses have been flawless except when I dropped a 16-35. Ouch! God, it's painful waiting five months for a recalibration of a 24mm though!

Basic rangefinder adjustment only needs a 2mm allen key and a little pick to get the red dot off for vertical adjustments. Worth learning and not really difficult. Especially useful when travelling (whenever that is).

Gordon

If I had someone show me once I'd be ok with doing it but I am not confident enough doing so via what I have found online unfortunately. I'm also a little OCD and have a feeling it would take me 3.5 hours. lol. Thanks for the response/info.

[Casey Jefferson]

I'm a professional violinist. Like many violinists, we are pretty anal(ysis) about our instruments and would pay a hefty price tag for a well made one.

The longer I work for the industry, the more I realize when you deliver to your paying clients, you get the job done, be it a cheapo student instrument or a million dollars Stradivarius. As a matter of fact, the instrument that earn the most money for me, is my cheapest one around $500, while my $22,000 Italian violin mostly just to please myself. Often clients even preferred my cheapest instrument for recording because my expensive violin doesn't suit the track well. Did I waste my money buying the expensive violin? Nope, I learned a lot from using one, it's much less forgiving on mistakes as it'll amplify everything, but once I work on the violin harder I'll get more rewards on creating more nuances and details. This actually helped me to improve my playing so I can do a lot more once I move to a cheap instrument.

I felt so much the same when I switch between Fuji X and Leica M. When it comes to shooting for a session or a job, you just want to deliver. Will the client notice the difference? Maybe yes, or maybe not, depends on the task. If Leica M is the right tool for the job, by all means use them to deliver the best. Some people shoot better through RF, some through SLR, some through Live view at arms length or waist level. They're all tools for the job.

Now, it'll be a different story when I just want to please ourself. We can shoot brick wall all day, or coffee mugs, or your favorite kitchen sink and analyze the heck our of the field curvature, purple fringing, transition zone, perspective distortion, tonal seperation...

 

[P1505]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:02 AM, Casey Jefferson said:

I'm a professional violinist.

Ok so now you need to post images of your instruments and links to music. I adore violin. I play piano but one day will start on the Cello.

[Casey Jefferson]

10 hours ago, P1505 said:

Ok so now you need to post images of your instruments and links to music. I adore violin. I play piano but one day will start on the Cello.

Here ya go, my Italian violin. 🤪 Taken with M240 + 35/2 cron asph.

Playing musical instrument can nurture our soul, keep it up!

(Sorry no link to my works cause mostly casually recorded ones 😝 )

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[P1505]

Again, maybe one for Barnacks but what about it makes it harder/different to play? It’s is beautiful by the way.

 

[photophile]

Not too much to add. I have used M's professionally for years, 4-2's, 6's 8's and now a 10. Some of my most popular/circulated pro work was surprisingly taken on the M8 with circa 1970's version glass. On jobs where I would take the nikon system and the leica system and shoot both, I would notice a slight preference - but not overwhelmingly so - by clients toward the leica work. Probably, statistically insignificant. I do however ALWAYS take a back-up. For the sheer pleasure of making images, whether to sell or simply add to my collection - I invariably reach for the leica. A tool - but my favorite tool in the shed

[xavierg]

On 2/3/2021 at 6:18 AM, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I have used M's, as well as other systems as a working photographer for many years. Shot hundreds of weddings with a pair of M9's. Commercial work with M-P 240's and M10's as well. Nothing special here. They're cameras. Can be used by working photographers like any other system. The only real barrier is cost of entry. I'm sure someone will eventually waffle on about how the lenses are crafted by angels and hand polished by virgins to achieve micro contrast that is unrivaled. A 4 page discussion on *3D pop* will ensue. The next genius will tell us how if it doesn't have Sony's eye tracking and 200 frames a second silent shooting it's just a piece of shit that only dentists want or use. Some especially bright spark will chime in letting us all know that the sensor is old tech and clients will reject it because it's obviously crap. Somewhere around page 6 it'll morph into a heated debate about depth of field. Meanwhile a few lucky ones will just do another shoot with an M-P and send off the images with an invoice.

Cameras aren't and never will be professional. That's the job of the idiot holding them. And just because a working photographer uses them doesn't make them better or special. Pretty much every model of camera from almost every brand has been used by working photographers and amateurs alike. And most working photographers aren't producing better work than many amateurs or stressing their gear as much. The only thing we generally do is shoot more. You choose a Leica to please yourself, not your clients. At the same time that's a totally valid reason to choose an M to work with. And if you really want to make it work then 95% of the time it will.

I don't get the "more professional shoots" line. They are or aren't. Successful working photographer don't grade their clients. They all get the best we have, of which camera choice is maybe 5%. Nearly EVERYTHING is more important than the camera to most working professionals. Maybe 2% of shoots have specific gear needs to make it work, although 50% of photographers think gear is vital and 90% think an M is limited in what it can do. All wrong. Some people seem obsessed by what they *think* a Leica can't do instead of the many many things they can do. There is absolutely no special reason to choose an M over any other camera to work with. And few reasons not to. You want a cool story but the reality is it's no more special than any other brand. Bummer eh?

I use Leica cameras for my work because they're pretty and I can afford them.

Gordon

hi im the senior photo editor for a large media network and also function as an in house photographer. you cannot tether an m series camera to a computer to use capture one and that is an automatic disqualifier. i understand your sentiment here and in terms of function youre right but in the "more professional shoots" being referenced ie high level commercial photography the client needs to see the photos on set, in capture one, live as they happen. because of the money being spent on those shoots, the answer to the the request to shoot tethered is "yes i will tether i will do whatever you want" because if the answer is anything other than that you don't get hired and you more than likely will never ever be hired again by them. you may be lucky to have good clients but that's just not how the commercial side of photography works. in fact, hasselblad's on set program "phocus" is such garbage and using it is so frustrating to clients that people don't shoot hasselblad on set. this is why every single commercial photographer uses phase one backs and why phase one dominates hasselblad as a company. i mean also on these shoots you're taking 10-20k photos in a day. manual focusing that would be a psychotic nightmare

in my ten years of experience as a digital tech (on set camera tech) and then a commissioning editor, i have seen two photographers use leica, and they were both SL2s. there is a reason for that. i understand your frustration at what is perceived as condescension but from my position i can pretty clearly tell where your experience in the industry ends and it could be helpful to understand that perhaps the person made the comments about the shoots because  your review is very positive and nice but completely inaccurate and not relevant to the needs of a large portion of the industry

[FlashGordonPhotography]

14 hours ago, xavierg said:

hi im the senior photo editor for a large media network and also function as an in house photographer. you cannot tether an m series camera to a computer to use capture one and that is an automatic disqualifier. i understand your sentiment here and in terms of function youre right but in the "more professional shoots" being referenced ie high level commercial photography the client needs to see the photos on set, in capture one, live as they happen. because of the money being spent on those shoots, the answer to the the request to shoot tethered is "yes i will tether i will do whatever you want" because if the answer is anything other than that you don't get hired and you more than likely will never ever be hired again by them. you may be lucky to have good clients but that's just not how the commercial side of photography works. in fact, hasselblad's on set program "phocus" is such garbage and using it is so frustrating to clients that people don't shoot hasselblad on set. this is why every single commercial photographer uses phase one backs and why phase one dominates hasselblad as a company. i mean also on these shoots you're taking 10-20k photos in a day. manual focusing that would be a psychotic nightmare

in my ten years of experience as a digital tech (on set camera tech) and then a commissioning editor, i have seen two photographers use leica, and they were both SL2s. there is a reason for that. i understand your frustration at what is perceived as condescension but from my position i can pretty clearly tell where your experience in the industry ends and it could be helpful to understand that perhaps the person made the comments about the shoots because  your review is very positive and nice but completely inaccurate and not relevant to the needs of a large portion of the industry

Can't really shoot sports on an M either. But that combined with tethered shooting is an infinitesimally small part of the working photography market. The thought that only tethered shooting is *serious* is false and arrogant.

Phase is doing so well, they separated the camera and software divisions to protect Capture One. And the M11 tethers to C1 just fine. Hence the addition of the USBC port on the bottom of the camera. But whatever...

20K shots in 24 hours is nearly 14 shots per minute non stop all day and all night. I call BS on that.

You have no idea what I've shot and who I've shot for in the last 35 years. I will tell you it's included Phase Hasselblad, Bronica, Leica S, SL, M and R and pretty much every other major brand in studio, tethered , untethered, from helicopters and underwater. From backyard weddings to multi day multi talent shoots internationally and at home. You have exactly zero idea where my experience ends. You think what you do is more serious than some of the shots taken on Leica M cameras that have changed the direction of wars, politics and current affairs? What tethered shooters do is shoot fluff, like handbags and sneakers held by pretty women. That's not serious. That's advertising.

What I am not is arrogant or narrow minded to think that the size of my studio, camera or printer means that what I shoot is more serious than any other hard working photographer. For every corporate client image I've shot, MILLIONS of straight from camera untethered brilliant images from thousands of photographers are shot every week in hundreds of disciplines with thousands of different cameras and lenses. You guys with a cable attached to a Phase you probably rent are no more a serious photographer than wedding, commercial, architecture, arial, underwater and journalism.

Post like your do nothing but expose the elitism still prevalent in our industry but a few *special* shooters who think they are better when they're not. It's rubbish and needs to be stamped out of the industry with malice.

Gordon

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Look here: Leica M

[xavierg]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Can't really shoot sports on an M either. But that combined with tethered shooting is an infinitesimally small part of the working photography market. The thought that only tethered shooting is *serious* is false and arrogant.

Phase is doing so well, they separated the camera and software divisions to protect Capture One. And the M11 tethers to C1 just fine. Hence the addition of the USBC port on the bottom of the camera. But whatever...

20K shots in 24 hours is nearly 14 shots per minute non stop all day and all night. I call BS on that.

You have no idea what I've shot and who I've shot for in the last 35 years. I will tell you it's included Phase Hasselblad, Bronica, Leica S, SL, M and R and pretty much every other major brand in studio, tethered , untethered, from helicopters and underwater. From backyard weddings to multi day multi talent shoots internationally and at home. You have exactly zero idea where my experience ends. You think what you do is more serious than some of the shots taken on Leica M cameras that have changed the direction of wars, politics and current affairs? What tethered shooters do is shoot fluff, like handbags and sneakers held by pretty women. That's not serious. That's advertising.

What I am not is arrogant or narrow minded to think that the size of my studio, camera or printer means that what I shoot is more serious than any other hard working photographer. For every corporate client image I've shot, MILLIONS of straight from camera untethered brilliant images from thousands of photographers are shot every week in hundreds of disciplines with thousands of different cameras and lenses. You guys with a cable attached to a Phase you probably rent are no more a serious photographer than wedding, commercial, architecture, arial, underwater and journalism.

Post like your do nothing but expose the elitism still prevalent in our industry but a few *special* shooters who think they are better when they're not. It's rubbish and needs to be stamped out of the industry with malice.

Gordon

i dont care who you shot or about you at all. none of that was personal. my point is that if you work in this giant part of the industry it does to a certain extent matter. screenshot attached to verify that i am telling the truth about key art shoots. please also check art streibers instagram he speaks to it extensively. it's frustrating as a person on my side to try to get any relevant info about leica because the discourse surrounding leicas is this idea of achieving some sort of photographic purity that a person like me could never achieve. if it is elitist for me to say that the advertising industry exists and has requirements that you are pretending don't exist and are not serious, then i am sorry. you have successfully pointed out that leica users are not elitist.

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