Infrared mark on lenses

[romualdo]

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37 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

That's curios... by chance Lager in his books displays a Telyt very close to yours (1256534) which has the R mark... in its usual location...

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Luigi, I stand corrected - it is there - thank you for your pic so I knew where to look. It's partially obscured by areas of black paint wear. Seeing it is a 1955 lens I should have expected to find an R mark

[sandro]

Other brands of course also used infrared marks on their lenses, some years later than Leitz did. Out of curiosity I checked on other lenses I have. The Canon 1.5/50mm, probably dating from 1954/55 has an infrared mark, and so has the Canon 3.5/100mm, probably dating around 196/67, also has a mark, but the older Canon Serenar 4/135 (1949) doesn't have such a mark.

A few lenses that I got with an Asahi Pentax Spotmatic also have an infrared mark: the Super-Takumar 1.4/50mm, Super-Takumar 2.8/105mm and a Sigma Minitel 4/200mm. 

So it seems that other manufacturers continued to indicate an R mark on their lenses in years when Leitz/Leica had already stopped doing that. That said, I have no idea how Leica R lenses were treated. The only R-lens I have is the Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/60mm doesn't have an R indication.

Lex

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[romualdo]

4 hours ago, sandro said:

 

So it seems that other manufacturers continued to indicate an R mark on their lenses in years when Leitz/Leica had already stopped doing that. That said, I have no idea how Leica R lenses were treated. The only R-lens I have is the Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/60mm doesn't have an R indication.

my youngest lens with an R mark is the Canon 35mm f2 (type II) from the early 70s (SN 39396)

[willeica]

I went into extreme detail on the features of 12 Summars in this post some years ago.

SN 194902 had no IR Mark, but SN 195070 does. So it would seem that the IR mark on the Summar came in around SN 195000 in late 1933 or early 1934, towards the end of the batch 192001-195500. However SN 207716 does not have an IR mark, but SN 208040 does which might seem to indicate a stuttering start for the IR mark. It is such little anomalies that make Leica collecting so interesting.  Most Summars also have another interesting feature the f2.9 mark for use with filters and the early Agfa Colour System. My rigid SN 186431 does not have it and my collapsible ones have it until SN 422925 after the Agfa system went out of use.

I have fewer Leica/Leitz lenses from the mid 1950s, but I will have a look at them to see if I can spot any IR marks or absence of same. 

William

 

[Pecole]

Hi, William.

You reactivate a very old story! As usual, I could not resist and went back to my file "Summar". The only thing I can confirm is that my rigid nº 186238 had no R mark, like my four rigid serials 167xxx (two nickel and two chrome) and also collapsible with black front rim nº 193195 (nickel) and 193294 (chrome). The first "normal" collapsible in my collection, nº 205673 (nickel) was first to have the R.

[willeica]

27 minutes ago, Pecole said:

Hi, William.

You reactivate a very old story! As usual, I could not resist and went back to my file "Summar". The only thing I can confirm is that my rigid nº 186238 had no R mark, like my four rigid serials 167xxx (two nickel and two chrome) and also collapsible with black front rim nº 193195 (nickel) and 193294 (chrome). The first "normal" collapsible in my collection, nº 205673 (nickel) was first to have the R.

My 207716 may be an 'outlier' as I believe that the R mark was introduced earlier. My 195070 and your 205673 are evidence of that. Some of the lens mounts may, of course, have been changed by service people. The other possibility is that Leica used up old mounts in the factory. The history of Leica is full of that as well as non sequential numbers.

I haven't had time to look at my 1950s lenses in detail but my 1957 LTM Summarit SN 1517946 from 1957 has the R mark. The earliest Summilux shown by Lager SN 1688518 does not have one. My thought is that Leica phased out this mark as new designs came in during the mid to late 1950s.

I have an early Nikkor 5.8cm f1.4 Nikkor lens with SN 144318 from 1959 which has a small red dot on the depth of field scale which I believe is for infra red use. 

William

Edited February 7, 2021 by willeica

[chenhu]

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My 179266 Elmar 50/3.5 has R mark, very strange as it's from late 1933?

[sandro]

4 hours ago, chenhu said:

My 179266 Elmar 50/3.5 has R mark, very strange as it's from late 1933?

Probably not so strange, but perhaps one of the earliest lenses with an R mark, since they seem to have been introduced in 1934. Perhaps then we should say, rather 1933/34.

Lex

[luigi bertolotti]

2 hours ago, sandro said:

Probably not so strange, but perhaps one of the earliest lenses with an R mark, since they seem to have been introduced in 1934. Perhaps then we should say, rather 1933/34.

Lex

Yes... my Hektor 5cm 178256 has the R mark; Hektor 7,3 129006 has not  (Hektor 7,3 of 1934 do have);  I have seen, by chance, two identical lenses very close to  the "divide", at least for that lens : an Alpine Elmar 162009 (no R mark) and another 162265 (R mark). 

Edited February 13, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[chenhu]

12 hours ago, sandro said:

Probably not so strange, but perhaps one of the earliest lenses with an R mark, since they seem to have been introduced in 1934. Perhaps then we should say, rather 1933/34.

Lex

My 179266 lens is a rare 6 o'clock version, welcome any comments in below thread. 

 

[sandro]

I checked some Summar 5 cm lenses on sale these days on the internet and found that serial number 207526 from 1934 does not have an R mark, but 216594 also from 1934 does have an R mark.

Strangely enough that does not coincide with Williams' findings of some of his 12 Summars, where SN 195070 (1934) has the IR mark, although William of course mentioned anomalies of the kind I registered here as well. My feeling is that the first R marks appeared on Summar 5 cm lenses in 1934. 

On other lenses it appears already in 1933, as Luigi showed with his Hektor 5 cm and an Elmar 5 cm. So as William remarked, this seems to indicate a "stuttering" start for the R mark on Leitz lenses, late 1933 and early 1934.

Lex

[willeica]

40 minutes ago, sandro said:

I checked some Summar 5 cm lenses on sale these days on the internet and found that serial number 207526 from 1934 does not have an R mark, but 216594 also from 1934 does have an R mark.

Strangely enough that does not coincide with Williams' findings of some of his 12 Summars, where SN 195070 (1934) has the IR mark, although William of course mentioned anomalies of the kind I registered here as well. My feeling is that the first R marks appeared on Summar 5 cm lenses in 1934. 

On other lenses it appears already in 1933, as Luigi showed with his Hektor 5 cm and an Elmar 5 cm. So as William remarked, this seems to indicate a "stuttering" start for the R mark on Leitz lenses, late 1933 and early 1934.

Lex

Thanks Lex. Now I need to go back to check my Summar exercise again for the anomalies. Jerzy has also looked at this aspect, I believe.

William

[UliWer]

 

Elmar 10.5cm 162404 (chrome) - no (luigi mentions one 162265 with R-mark in #29

Elmar 9 cm 165119 - no

Hektor 7.3cm 166220 - no

Elmar  5cm 179426 - yes (see chenhu's 179266 in #27)

Summar 192045 (nickel) - no

Hektor 13.5cm 194726 - yes 

 

Telyt 4.5/20cm 1366532 - yes 

Elmar f2.8/5cm LTM 1451765 - no 

Elmar 9cm collapsible 146970 - yes 

 

Canon Serenar 1:1.9/8.5cm No. 64582 - yes

Nippon Kogaku 1:2.5/10.5cm  No 816224 for Contax - yes.

Never seen an "R"-mark on any Zeiss Contax lenses pre- or post-war.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by UliWer

[sandro]

Uli, I agree about Zeiss Contax lenses, I check every now and then on internet but I don't see an R mark. Zeiss Ikon did have infrared filters in their lists, also before the war. Interestingly, Canon seems to have used an R mark on many of their rangefinder lenses. Contrary to Leitz wide-angle lenses a red R appears on lenses of 19mm (19864-1974), 25mm (1956-1975), 3.5/28mm from 1952 onward but not the Serenar 35mm (1951-1952).

Lex

[Pyrogallol]

Yes, my 35mm f3.5 Serenar does not have an “R” mark, but the later 35mm f2.8 does.

and I just bought a Zeiss infrared filter, as dark as an “IR” Leica one.

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[willeica]

15 hours ago, sandro said:

I checked some Summar 5 cm lenses on sale these days on the internet and found that serial number 207526 from 1934 does not have an R mark, but 216594 also from 1934 does have an R mark.

Strangely enough that does not coincide with Williams' findings of some of his 12 Summars, where SN 195070 (1934) has the IR mark, although William of course mentioned anomalies of the kind I registered here as well. My feeling is that the first R marks appeared on Summar 5 cm lenses in 1934. 

On other lenses it appears already in 1933, as Luigi showed with his Hektor 5 cm and an Elmar 5 cm. So as William remarked, this seems to indicate a "stuttering" start for the R mark on Leitz lenses, late 1933 and early 1934.

Lex

 

I've checked again on my post and I see that the one which was out of sequence (No 4 in the group) may have had a later mount with an earlier lens head. This is something to look out for when checking chronology and sequence with older Leica lenses. I hope this makes sense. All that being said, there was a lot of overlap in Leica output and the factory often used up old parts. 

William 

[tranquilo67]

Here you have what I've identified around the period of the removal:

Elmar 90/4               LTM 1956 1.410.xxx IR: Y

Elmar 50/2.8           LTM 1956 1.450.xxx IR: Y

Summicron 50 (DR) M   1957 1.467.xxx IR: Y

Summarit 50/1.5    LTM 1957 1.472.xxx IR: Y

Summaron 28/5.6 LTM 1957  1.501.xxx IR N

Collap. Elmar 90/4   M   1957 1.521.xxx IR: N

Elmar 90/4 (Thin)   LTM 1961 1.828.xxx IR: N

I've included the mount just in case they could go in a different way. From the above it seems 1957 was the date they went away but we all know how these changes happen.

I've also included the my last thin Elmar 90/4 that, even when it's LTM it didn't get it.

I'll try to find some time to investigate my early lenses.

Hope it will help,

Augusto

Edit: added two more and narrowing it towards the serial 1.500.xxx

Edited April 27, 2021 by tranquilo67
Narrowing it a bit more

[sandro]

On 2/13/2021 at 2:09 AM, luigi bertolotti said:

Yes... my Hektor 5cm 178256 has the R mark; Hektor 7,3 129006 has not  (Hektor 7,3 of 1934 do have);  I have seen, by chance, two identical lenses very close to  the "divide", at least for that lens : an Alpine Elmar 162009 (no R mark) and another 162265 (R mark). 

Luigi, from which year do you think your Hektor 7.3 cm 129006 is? I checked in the list on the summilux.net website (I believe JC's) and there it is said no lens with that number is know.

Lex

[luigi bertolotti]

1932 according to our Wiki... curios that my one is quoted... maybe the editor of the page has seen my item in the Forum... 😎 .. anyway other s/n do exist... Lager displays a 97.xxx, for instance... and I  have seen also some 98.xxx (one is currently for sale on ebay)

SN Start	SN End	Product	Year	Total
-96492	96602-	Hektor 7.3 cm 1:1.9 (nickel-band)	1930	111+
-120222	121620-	Hektor 7.3 cm 1:1.9 (nickel-band+chrom-band+all-black)	1931	1,399+
-129006	129885-	Hektor 7.3 cm 1:1.9 (chrom-band+all-black)	1932	880+

Edited May 12, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

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Hallo,

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