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What M lens is missing - what lens should Leica invent soon?


Al Brown

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While there are a number of things they could do, one obvious gap I see is a 35mm Noctilux. They have done 50, they have done 75mm, now they might consider 35mm. It is not a lens I would likely want, due to size and cost, but I think it would actually be the most useful Noctilux, as it would bring separation to a wider focal length, which is harder to achieve than separation in a portrait lens. It would also have a more usable DOF wide open, so it could likely actually be used photographically, rather than primarily being an exercise in who has the most bokeh. My hope is that they could do this is a body not much bigger and heavier than something like a 75mm APO, but perhaps that is wishful thinking. VF intrusion is probably hard to solve, given the wider angle.

The other big gap would be an updated 35mm Summicron ASPH, one geared towards compact size and very high optical performance.

Finally, I like Seb's idea of a line of compact, high quality primes. I agree that they kind of shot themselves in the foot with the Summarit line. They were great lenses, but rather than change their fonts and sell them like they were "entry" lenses, perhaps they would have had better luck just saying, "we made these slower and with conventional optics, so they are smaller and cheaper".

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1 hour ago, adan said:

The only real "hole" I see in the M lineup - assuming the 35 Summaron is real, and with the end of the 90 Summarit, is a 90mm f/2.8.

I'd like to see (and would buy, even at "new Leica" prices) not necessarily a re-issue, but a rethinking of the 90mm Tele-Elmarit-M.

Yes, a real short telephoto 90/2.8, about the size of a 50/1.4 perhaps, with great performance would be a nice addition to the M lens line up. 

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vor 19 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

and the WATE

As far as I can see the Wate (TRI-ELMAR-M 1:4/16-18-21MM ASPH.) is still in the catalogue. Perhaps you think of the "MATE"  (Tri-Elmar-M 1:4/28-35-50).

To be honest i do not see any "holes" in the the line up of lenses compatible with the M. Almost everyday I see an offer for a "Mate" in the second hand market.

Or the 1:2.8/90 mentioned by Adan: you easily can find four original M-variants second hand and if you add the Summarits there is one more with two variations. Though it is astonishing that neither Voigtländer or Zeiss offer a 2.8 (or 2.5)/90mm you may look at other non-Leica names of the past  like Canon or even Schacht Travenar which are coupled with the rangefinder. I think it would be more appropriate to talk of abundance than anything missing. Of course they are all not "Apo. Asph" or anything like this, though if you are looking for luxury you already have more than one option in the present Leica catalogue. 

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18 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

While there are a number of things they could do, one obvious gap I see is a 35mm Noctilux.

Karbe stated in one of the recent videos that this would be very difficult as the entrance pupil for the 35mm is inside the lens, resulting in a huge first element. 

 

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13 minutes ago, UliWer said:

Or the 1:2.8/90 mentioned by Adan: you easily can find four original M-variants second hand and if you add the Summarits there is one more with two variations.

The word 'invent' was used. A shorter, lighter 90/2.8 than even the lightweight Tele-Elmarit and without its flare problems would fit this bill well IMO. The 90/4 is small and light but slow. The Summaries are no longer.

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4 hours ago, mike3996 said:

I would say a modern design 135/4.5 or 5.6. Preferably low-element count to max the pop but speed doesn't have to be a priority. Just something that would make a nice tele landscape lens. APO-Telyt-M is heavy, hence a smaller aperture.

Hmmm - the APO-Telyt is only heavy by 1962 standards.

135 Elmarit for M (1963-1996 in various versions): 730/780 grams

135 Tele-Elmar (1964-1996 in various versions): 510/550 grams

APO-Telyt-M: 459 grams

However, since Leica has been saying for years that 135s should be stopped down to f/5.6-8 anyway, to focus reliably with the M digitals (they need the extra DoF), a slower 135 does make sense in that regard. And likely would be lighter as well.

______________

As to a Voigtlander 90mm (or longer): back when Cosina started the Voigtlander project, the C/V CEO was reported to have said he though 75mm was the longest focal length that made sense for rangefinders. Nevertheless, C/V did briefly produce a 90 f/3.5 APO-Lanthar in screw-mount (a name back in the news for the new 50mm) in screw-mount. Sadly, didn't make the cut when C/V transitioned to native M-mount.

https://casualphotophile.com/2018/07/16/speed-isnt-everything-voigtlander-90mm-f-3-5-apo-lanthar-review/

As to the ultra-compact 90 Tele-Elmarit: back in the day, there was a joke going around about the regular "long/heavy" Elmarits and Elmarit-Ms, borrowed from the sultry and ribald Mae West.

"Is that a 90mm Elmarit in your pocket? (Sexy leer) Or are you just - glad to see me?" ;)

The big heavy Elmarits are no substitute for the tiny TE.

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vor 4 Stunden schrieb pgk:

The word 'invent' was used. A shorter, lighter 90/2.8 than even the lightweight Tele-Elmarit

You cannot invent new optical rules. Even with a true telephoto lens in which the physical length of the lens is shorter than the focal length there are limits. Achieving better performance usually needs more optical elements which will limit the chances of less weight. If someone feels the 4/90 Elmar is slow, I recommend to look into this thread: 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316855-if-you-had-to-choose-only-one-fstop-095-16/?tab=comments#comment-4115303

Perhaps it's helpful to think again, why Voigtländer is offerering no lens with 90 mm and Zeiss only one at 4/85mm, whilst both have several options for 35 and 50mm. Leica has already 3 90mm in the present catalogue and 5 or 6 on the second hand market. Summarits as well as all variants of Elmarits are not "gone"  when Leica Camera AG does not sell them anymore. 

 

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58/1.4 Summilux ASPH.

 

The same 50lux asph E46, but with these tiny extra 8mm that makes the difference.

I think my ideal Leica M lenses range is 21-50 ... 75mm is too much for me. But when the 58mm comes, my range magically extends to 21-58, oh yeah! 

21 + 35 + 58 ... Like a king!

 

P.s. Since 2010 approx, my Nikkor 58/1.4G is my second most used lens... I would buy this lens ten times

Edited by Dennis
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28 minutes ago, UliWer said:

You cannot invent new optical rules. Even with a true telephoto lens in which the physical length of the lens is shorter than the focal length there are limits. Achieving better performance usually needs more optical elements which will limit the chances of less weight. If someone feels the 4/90 Elmar is slow, I recommend to look into this thread: 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/316855-if-you-had-to-choose-only-one-fstop-095-16/?tab=comments#comment-4115303

Perhaps it's helpful to think again, why Voigtländer is offerering no lens with 90 mm and Zeiss only one at 4/85mm, whilst both have several options for 35 and 50mm. Leica has already 3 90mm in the present catalogue and 5 or 6 on the second hand market. Summarits as well as all variants of Elmarits are not "gone"  when Leica Camera AG does not sell them anymore. 

I have Elmarit-M and lightweight Tele-Emarit. The Summarit appeals and is a little smaller than the Elmarit-M but an even shorter lens of the same aperture and excellent performance would appeal. Very high quality 80/90mm lenses are available but many are faster models or macro models. IMO there is still a gap and it could be filled.

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vor 5 Stunden schrieb sebben:

Karbe stated in one of the recent videos that this would be very difficult as the entrance pupil for the 35mm is inside the lens, resulting in a huge first element. 

 

Am I getting this right that the question is referring to a 35 mm f/0.75?  But yes, the Zenitar 35 mm f/1 is huge, the Voigtländer 35 1.2 series is reasonable large. On the other hand nobody is expecting a tiny Noctilux at any focal length.

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

I have Elmarit-M and lightweight Tele-Emarit. The Summarit appeals and is a little smaller than the Elmarit-M but an even shorter lens of the same aperture and excellent performance would appeal...

As it happens after I read your comment "a real short telephoto 90/2.8, about the size of a 50/1.4 perhaps" I dragged-out my own T-E, the f2.5 Summarit and, for fun, the '53 50mm f1.5 Summarit which just dropped through the letter box (I don't have a 50mm Summilux!). I have to say I was very surprised to see just how much smaller - well; less bulky? - is the T-E than the 90mm Summarit which, itself, is hardly a lard-arse.

"Must take E39 filters" might be an interesting design brief for a new 90mm f2.8!

Philip.

Edited by pippy
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vor 25 Minuten schrieb pippy:

I have to say I was very surprised to see just how much smaller - well, less bulky? - is the T-E than the 90mm Summarit. E39 filter size can be an interesting design brief for a new 90mm f2.8!

From left to right the 50mm Summilux (Version 1), the Summilux asph. and the "fat" 90mm Tele-Elmarit:

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Of course with the original sunshades for the old Summilux and the Tele-Emarit the Summilux asph will shrink in comparison. I am not sure whether the later "thin" Tele-Elmarit was longer than the "fat" one, of course it was less bulky. On the M3 (large viewfinder magnification and chrome) the "fat" one is an ideal lens. 

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Interesting photograph, Uli. Thanks for posting.

Here are the three mentioned in post #53. L-R 50mm f1.5 Summarit; 90mm f2.8 Tele-Elmarit-M ('Thin' T-E) and 90mm f2.5 Summarit;

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Philip.

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I can't quite measure to the 2nd decimal point at the moment, Uli (apologies!), but measured against my engineer's steel rule it comes out at almost exactly 61mm. I do have a digital caliper around (somewhere) so if greater accuracy is required....

:)

Phiilp.

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