Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2023 Share #81 Posted January 27, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) On 1/8/2023 at 9:53 PM, hdmesa said: Separation at f/2 with the CV 50 APO at near distances is incredible. It separates in a different way than an f/1.4 non-APO lens. It doesn't rely on bokeh but on the striking contrast between planes of focus. Can you post some of your own (not links to other people's work, please) examples to illustrate this? It's a bold claim on the face of it and I'm interested to understand the point you are making. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 27, 2023 Posted January 27, 2023 Hi Ouroboros, Take a look here Looking to buy a new fifty. Voigtlander 50mm 1.2 or 1.5 VMII?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #82 Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ouroboros said: Can you post some of your own (not links to other people's work, please) examples to illustrate this? It's a bold claim on the face of it and I'm interested to understand the point you are making. Are you saying you don't believe that an APO lens like the Leica 50 APO or CV 50 APO – with very high contrast and sharpness at f/2 – does not separate the subject differently at f/2 than a non-APO f/1, 1.2, or f/1.4 lens? Did you maybe misunderstand and think I said that the separation made by an APO at f/2 is better? I want to understand what you're expecting to see with examples. To my eye, there could not be a bigger difference between the style of separation between the lenses here: CV 50 f/1https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/17#15992642 CV 50 APOhttps://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1743270/0#15863234 Edited January 27, 2023 by hdmesa Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Product Details (Product Details) Complete Overview 50mm Leica M-Mount Lenses 50 mm F1.0 Nokton (Amazon | B&H) – 50 mm F1.2 Nokton (Amazon | B&H) – 50 mm F1.5 Heliar classic (Amazon | B&H) – 50 mm F1.5 Nokton Vintage MC / SC (Amazon | B&H) – 50 mm F2.0 Apo Lanthar (Amazon | B&H) – 50 mm F3.5 Heliar Vintage (Amazon | B&H)
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2023 Share #83 Posted January 27, 2023 20 minutes ago, hdmesa said: Are you saying you don't believe that an APO lens like the Leica 50 APO or CV 50 APO – with very high contrast and sharpness at f/2 – does not separate the subject differently at f/2 than a non-APO f/1, 1.2, or f/1.4 lens? Did you maybe misunderstand and think I said that the separation made by an APO at f/2 is better? I want to understand what you're expecting to see with examples. I never said I disbelieve anything. I'm curious to understand what you mean. You said the CV 50mm apo "separates in a different way than an f1.4 non-apo lens. It doesn't rely on bokeh but on the striking contrast between planes of focus." I'd like to see comparisons that you've made that might illustrate what you're saying. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #84 Posted January 27, 2023 8 minutes ago, Ouroboros said: I never said I disbelieve anything. I'm curious to understand what you mean. You said the CV 50mm apo "separates in a different way than an f1.4 non-apo lens. It doesn't rely on bokeh but on the striking contrast between planes of focus." I'd like to see comparisons that you've made that might illustrate what you're saying. I edited my post to add samples. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #85 Posted January 27, 2023 13 minutes ago, Ouroboros said: ... ...separates in a different way than an f1.4 non-apo lens. It doesn't rely on bokeh alone but on the striking contrast between the planes of in and out of focus." ... I edited what I said above in bold to make it more clear what I was trying to communicate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted January 27, 2023 Share #86 Posted January 27, 2023 Since apochromatic lenses (at least the excellent ones with no LoCA) focus all visible light at the same exact distance, the transition from focus to out of focus is supposed to be very abrupt. I think this is what hdmesa is saying and seeing. (I take it for granted that we refer to the same aperture, not f/1.4 versus f/2 for instance.) It could be very interesting to see a controlled test with same scene etc. and the Nokton f/1.0 versus the Apo-Lanthar, both at f/2. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #87 Posted January 27, 2023 Advertisement (gone after registration) 10 minutes ago, LarsHP said: Since apochromatic lenses (at least the excellent ones with no LoCA) focus all visible light at the same exact distance, the transition from focus to out of focus is supposed to be very abrupt. I think this is what hdmesa is saying and seeing. (I take it for granted that we refer to the same aperture, not f/1.4 versus f/2 for instance.) It could be very interesting to see a controlled test with same scene etc. and the Nokton f/1.0 versus the Apo-Lanthar, both at f/2. Yes, thanks. I was trying to say that non-APO wide aperture lenses rely more heavily on bokeh to separate the subject, while the APO relies more on sharpness and contrast against what bokeh it does have to separate the subject. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted January 27, 2023 Share #88 Posted January 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, hdmesa said: Yes, thanks. I was trying to say that non-APO wide aperture lenses rely more heavily on bokeh to separate the subject, while the APO relies more on sharpness and contrast against what bokeh it does have to separate the subject. I think separation is based on both resolution + contrast (i.e. sharpness or "micro-contrast") versus degree of blur. If a lens isn't that sharp at the point of focus, it won't have the same pop and separation as a lens with excellent sharpness. However, since your Nokton f/1.0 is an excellent example of those exotic f/1 (or thereabout) lenses, it would be very interesting to see how your Apo-Lanthar compares in a side-by-side test with both lenses at f/2 and focus at medium distance (like two or three meters away). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
catacore Posted January 27, 2023 Share #89 Posted January 27, 2023 I thought that was your point: the 3D/"pop" effect between wide apperture (shallowest DOF) vs sharpness/micro-contrast. I, myself, would have picked the CV 50mm APO vs CV Nokton 50/1.5 II if their size would have been similar, but I went for the Nokton for its size/weight (and optical quality, as well). Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted January 27, 2023 Share #90 Posted January 27, 2023 17 minutes ago, hdmesa said: I edited what I said above in bold to make it more clear what I was trying to communicate. The images you linked to aren't that useful in clarifying your point as they are not a controlled comparison. I was hoping for a tripod based comparison with a fixed subject in controlled lighting. I would not argue over the apparent resolution and contrast of the CV 50mm apo due to its physical apochromatic properties, so I assume this is why you made your earlier comment. However, the CV 50mm apo is not a lens I'm interested in buying but thanks anyway. Since it was announced, I've been interested in the CV 50 f1, having once owned late a noctilux f1 but didn't like it for a couple of reasons (mainly weight, ergonomics and low contrast 'softness') and subsequently sold it, so from that point of view the linked images from the CV 50 f1 are more interesting to me as a lens that possibly would improve on where the noctilux fell short for my preference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #91 Posted January 27, 2023 8 minutes ago, Ouroboros said: The images you linked to aren't that useful in clarifying your point as they are not a controlled comparison. I was hoping for a tripod based comparison with a fixed subject in controlled lighting. I would not argue over the apparent resolution and contrast of the CV 50mm apo due to its physical apochromatic properties, so I assume this is why you made your earlier comment. However, the CV 50mm apo is not a lens I'm interested in buying but thanks anyway. Since it was announced, I've been interested in the CV 50 f1, having once owned late a noctilux f1 but didn't like it for a couple of reasons (mainly weight, ergonomics and low contrast 'softness') and subsequently sold it, so from that point of view the linked images from the CV 50 f1 are more interesting to me as a lens that possibly would improve on where the noctilux fell short for my preference. I didn't own both lenses at the same time, unfortunately. But saying an f/1, f/1.2 or f/1.4 lens wide open separates (renders) differently from APO f/2 at f/2 isn't a "bold claim", IMO. That's why I was asking for clarification as to why you though it was such a grand statement. I agree with you and Lars that it would be interesting to see a controlled comparison. I've been thinking about reacquiring both these lenses, and if I do, I could do such a test and report back. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted January 27, 2023 Share #92 Posted January 27, 2023 A non apo lens with more field curvature may also show more separation than an apo one with less field curvature in praxis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #93 Posted January 27, 2023 7 minutes ago, lct said: A non apo lens with more field curvature may also show more separation than an apo one with less field curvature in praxis. At close distance and when left uncorrected. But to clarify again, I wasn't saying an APO lens had more separation, just a different way of separating. Perhaps that's not the way it came across, though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
28framelines Posted January 27, 2023 Share #94 Posted January 27, 2023 4 hours ago, hdmesa said: Are you saying you don't believe that an APO lens like the Leica 50 APO or CV 50 APO – with very high contrast and sharpness at f/2 – does not separate the subject differently at f/2 than a non-APO f/1, 1.2, or f/1.4 lens? Did you maybe misunderstand and think I said that the separation made by an APO at f/2 is better? I want to understand what you're expecting to see with examples. To my eye, there could not be a bigger difference between the style of separation between the lenses here: CV 50 f/1https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1741370/17#15992642 CV 50 APOhttps://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1743270/0#15863234 I took a look at these images in the links, and I’m not going to lie, it’s quite different for me to tell the difference, however I believe you do see a difference. I guess it’s one of those un/trained eye things; I shoot mostly at 28, and can almost always tell when someone shot a 28 or a 35 even though many would argue that they are way too similar. If I squint, I think I maybe see the difference? It’s not really the bokeh itself, but how quickly the sharp area of the image “rolls off” to the bokeh, correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted January 27, 2023 Share #95 Posted January 27, 2023 12 minutes ago, 28framelines said: (...) It’s not really the bokeh itself, but how quickly the sharp area of the image “rolls off” to the bokeh, correct? Yes, at least that's how I see and understand it. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #96 Posted January 27, 2023 (edited) 29 minutes ago, 28framelines said: I took a look at these images in the links, and I’m not going to lie, it’s quite different for me to tell the difference, however I believe you do see a difference. I guess it’s one of those un/trained eye things; I shoot mostly at 28, and can almost always tell when someone shot a 28 or a 35 even though many would argue that they are way too similar... The fact that you couldn't see a difference, that means the CV 50 f/2 APO at f/2 was able to compete with the CV 50 f/1 at f/1 for separation. Perhaps that is the bold conclusion to which @Ouroboros refers. For me, when I look at the two sets, the APO reminds me of the Pentax 67 with the 105 lens shot wide open. But the f/1 lens images feel completely different to me – very somber and something else entirely. Perhaps I read too much into it being I was connected with the experience of shooting both. Edited January 27, 2023 by hdmesa Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #97 Posted January 27, 2023 29 minutes ago, 28framelines said: ... If I squint, I think I maybe see the difference? It’s not really the bokeh itself, but how quickly the sharp area of the image “rolls off” to the bokeh, correct? There is that, but also the fact that to me, the areas in focus with the APO seem almost hyper-real because of the sharpness and contrast. That balance between in focus and out of focus is very high. The f/1 lens has a similar separation, but the balance is more heavily reliant on bokeh blur over subject sharpness and contrast. There's another way to more simply illustrate what I'm talking about. Use a lens like the 50 Lux ASPH and shoot it at f/1.4 (where contrast is lower and bokeh is more prominent) and compare the same shot to f/2 (where sharpness is higher and bokeh is reduced). Images from both should show high separation but for different reasons. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarsHP Posted January 27, 2023 Share #98 Posted January 27, 2023 59 minutes ago, hdmesa said: There is that, but also the fact that to me, the areas in focus with the APO seem almost hyper-real because of the sharpness and contrast. That balance between in focus and out of focus is very high. The f/1 lens has a similar separation, but the balance is more heavily reliant on bokeh blur over subject sharpness and contrast. There's another way to more simply illustrate what I'm talking about. Use a lens like the 50 Lux ASPH and shoot it at f/1.4 (where contrast is lower and bokeh is more prominent) and compare the same shot to f/2 (where sharpness is higher and bokeh is reduced). Images from both should show high separation but for different reasons. I'd suggest taking one of those 50mm f/0.95 Chinese lenses from TTArtisan, Zhong Yi (Mitakon) etc. shot wide open compared to the 50mm Apo-Lanthar. The amount of blur from the f/0.95 lens will naturally be higher, but since these lenses have quite a bit of spherical aberration and whatnot, the part of the image which is in focus will still be kind of soft; both low in contrast and resolution. This means nothing in the image is really sharp, so the difference between the blurred and the focused parts of the image won't be as striking as it could. This is where the apochromatic lenses will shine: the in-focus parts stand out strongly because these parts are extremely sharp compared to the blurred parts. For the above reason (as well as its size and weight), I think the Nokton f/1.0 is highly attractive. You ordered it again, right? 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted January 27, 2023 Share #99 Posted January 27, 2023 10 minutes ago, LarsHP said: I'd suggest taking one of those 50mm f/0.95 Chinese lenses from TTArtisan, Zhong Yi (Mitakon) etc. shot wide open compared to the 50mm Apo-Lanthar. The amount of blur from the f/0.95 lens will naturally be higher, but since these lenses have quite a bit of spherical aberration and whatnot, the part of the image which is in focus will still be kind of soft; both low in contrast and resolution. This means nothing in the image is really sharp, so the difference between the blurred and the focused parts of the image won't be as striking as it could. This is where the apochromatic lenses will shine: the in-focus parts stand out strongly because these parts are extremely sharp compared to the blurred parts. For the above reason (as well as its size and weight), I think the Nokton f/1.0 is highly attractive. You ordered it again, right? Yes, I did order the CV 50 f/1 again, and it should arrive tomorrow along with the LLL 50 Elcan in titanium. Popflash will send via Saturday delivery if you call to arrange. I was thinking along the same lines – the CV 50 f/1 is very sharp at f/1 and has surprisingly high contrast at f/1 as well. I used the CV 50 f/1 as an example because I quickly knew where to grab some samples I'd posted in b&w to compare with the APO in b&w. Probably choosing a non-FLE (like the examples you mentioned) in addition to non-APO would be the proper comparison to show the largest difference. I have the Contax 50 1.4 C/Y I could use, but its painterly bokeh might distract from the comparison. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
intangiblethings Posted January 28, 2023 Share #100 Posted January 28, 2023 Appreciate the little background tidbit around APO rendering @hdmesa. I've never shot with any of the M-mount APOs and haven't really been interested in adding one to the rotation due to size but the info around the physics that impart a different aesthetic are cool. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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