BREAKING NEWS

[Steven]

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29 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

That would capture my $$.  I've been waiting for the 24 SL APO, but I do prefer 28 focal length over 35 mm.  On an M or SL I use the M 28/1.4 asph. No, I'm not an insider with my hands on either of these new wonders, and Jono isn't saying.

Not much longer to wait ! 4600 euros will be the retail price. 

[Steven]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Maybe M11 will just use the same 40MP, then add IBIS. 

How to make room for IBIS ? 
Easy : M11 will not replace M10-R. 
M11 will just swap optical viewfinder/rangefinder and rear screen for OLED EVF only.      

We get a very clean look à la M10-D.
No rangefinder mechanism makes room for electronics on the upper part of the body. 
No rear screen will make it thin enough to house IBIS within the M10 current  thickness. 

The design will look like MD-2 : top case without any window. 

Will it sell ? 

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Like that Leica can still sell M10-R for rangefinder lovers. And M11 for everybody else screaming for an M with EVF. 

I did ask if there was any internal talk about an evf. He said “no chance, the M is about tradition” 

As I prefer shooting the M in live view, and love the SL2S experience since I only shoot wide open, I would love an evf, but I really don’t believe it. 

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[nicci78]

Leica still lack a small full frame EVF camera. 

For small camera needs. They force us to choose between Q2 (fixed lens), CL (APS-C) and M10 (manual rangefinder with very old optional external EVF) 

None would be as perfect as a smaller SL2-S 

SL2/SL2-S are way too big and too heavy for everyday carry.  

Edited January 24, 2021 by nicci78

[Steven]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Leica still lack a small full frame EVF camera. 

For small camera needs. They force us to choose between Q2 (fixed lens), CL (APS-C) and M10 (manual rangefinder with very old optional external EVF) 

None would be as perfect as a smaller SL2-S 

SL2/SL2-S are way too big and too heavy for everyday carry.  

Thats very true. Personally, I would give anything of an EVF M. The only thing I don't love about the M is the OVF. But I understand (and respect) that this might sound insulting to long time Leica users. I don't mean to step on history, but im personally not a traditionalist so im not attached to the OVF. I just prefer the EVF experience. I get better exposed, better composed shots with my EVF. 

[TomB_tx]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Thats very true. Personally, I would give anything of an EVF M. The only thing I don't love about the M is the OVF. But I understand (and respect) that this might sound insulting to long time Leica users. I don't mean to step on history, but im personally not a traditionalist so im not attached to the OVF. I just prefer the EVF experience. I get better exposed, better composed shots with my EVF. 

I understand. I've used Leica M cameras since 1968, so the OVF/RF is an old, comfortable friend, and I can focus it faster and easier than judging sharpness of an image, although I've also used SLRs as long. If I didn't hate autofocus I'd feel differently, but manual focus and control is a big part of my enjoyment in taking pictures.

I have taken to using a base A7 for my old SLR lenses (and occasionally an M lens) and its small size is very appealing - it reminds me of my old Pentax LX. I also find I can focus its EVF very well without focus peaking - just by the contrast "snap" - so I can see a Leica version as a companion to my M10 - just not as a replacement.

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, Steven said:

Will it sell ?

Not if it has the M mount...

[criolf]

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It looks like I'm "against the current" here, but I for one don't want IBIS in an M body... 

Since a long while there has been Leica on one side and everyone else on the other, so if I want/need IBIS, wi-fi, EVF, I get a Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji/etc., but I chose Leica.

They need to decide if they want to remain Leica or get in the "sharks tank" that is currently the consumer/pro camera market, and if they do the latter, they'll get eaten and

live through the history of the name only (lenses, film cameras).

Leica is going through a "test the waters" period lately, with the screen-less M10D - but with wi-fi and phone app, the faux lever, etc., where they modernise the cameras but

throw in old styling elements just to keep their old time clients in check, but for how long?

I don't want the "evolutionary" Leica, that gives me IBIS and EVF, I want the "revolutionary" one that gave me Monochrom (inconceivable at launch - at least for me, it blew my mind - and still now, where there still is no other company - medium format with just one exception aside) and the M-D.

 

But that's just me...

 

[Steven]

3 minutes ago, criolf said:

It looks like I'm "against the current" here, but I for one don't want IBIS in an M body... 

Since a long while there has been Leica on one side and everyone else on the other, so if I want/need IBIS, wi-fi, EVF, I get a Canon/Nikon/Sony/Fuji/etc., but I chose Leica.

They need to decide if they want to remain Leica or get in the "sharks tank" that is currently the consumer/pro camera market, and if they do the latter, they'll get eaten and

live through the history of the name only (lenses, film cameras).

Leica is going through a "test the waters" period lately, with the screen-less M10D - but with wi-fi and phone app, the faux lever, etc., where they modernise the cameras but

throw in old styling elements just to keep their old time clients in check, but for how long?

I don't want the "evolutionary" Leica, that gives me IBIS and EVF, I want the "revolutionary" one that gave me Monochrom (inconceivable at launch - at least for me, it blew my mind - and still now, where there still is no other company - medium format with just one exception aside) and the M-D.

 

But that's just me...

 

I agree that the EVF would be unacceptably revolutionary. But not ibis. Ibis would be an “invisible” improvement in the user experience of the camera. The only place it would be visible would be in the better pictures you would get. 
 

how would you recommend they push an m11 to market and ask their clients to pay 8k for it in today’s market if not for improvement such as ibis ? If they don’t come out with an m11 that changes things a bit, they will not sell more Ms and they will disappear and you will be sadder than if you ”had” to use an M with ibis. 

[criolf]

The clients will pay, as they always did - they're Leica (still are for now).

And no, the M will not disappear, but just increases in price, as all M's are.

Currently I can buy an M8 from 15 years ago for close to the price of a Leica SL, with M9 from 12 years ago more than an SL - that says a lot about what Leica customers prefer.

And that's digital alone...

[Steven]

20 minutes ago, criolf said:

The clients will pay, as they always did - they're Leica (still are for now).

And no, the M will not disappear, but just increases in price, as all M's are.

Currently I can buy an M8 from 15 years ago for close to the price of a Leica SL, with M9 from 12 years ago more than an SL - that says a lot about what Leica customers prefer.

And that's digital alone...

Ok, but it still needs an incremental upgrade. I see IBIS as incremental in today’s market. I think it’s what the M lacks to be perfect. 
 

I’m honestly curious to know what you would bring to the m11 if you were in charge or it at Leica ? Would it just be an m10 with an 11 engrave, or you would change something ? 

[P1505]

I’d bring Zbis, M10 size, no screen, no fake lever, two card slots, ability to add focus peaking into the OVF instead of having a full EVF.

And I’d work on the shutter sound to make it sound more “thunky” as that’s part of the experience.

 

[criolf]

New sensor - higher ISO/ higher dynamic range, 

in-camera lens profile corrections for all M-mount Leica's and other makers (Zeiss/Voigtlander/etc.),

high level of weather proofing (IP68),

bigger buffer,

new type memory cards compatibility (UX..something or other)

manual adjustment of frame lines size

[Steven]

15 minutes ago, P1505 said:

Zbis

Yes

 

15 minutes ago, P1505 said:

M10 size, no screen

Yes

 

16 minutes ago, P1505 said:

no fake lever

Noooo!!!!

 

16 minutes ago, P1505 said:

two card slots,

Yes

 

17 minutes ago, P1505 said:

ability to add focus peaking into the OVF instead of having a full EVF.

Interesting although I’m not sure to understand how that’s even possible 

 

17 minutes ago, P1505 said:

shutter sound to make it sound more “thunky”

Yes!!!

[Steven]

11 minutes ago, criolf said:

New senso

That was enough to sell the R, not sure it will be for the 11. New number must bring a big change. As always. 
as for the rest of your list, none of this would make me want to upgrade, and god knows I suffer from sever GAS. 

[criolf]

First of all, yes, I am aware that my list is not "flashy", but, as they say, "different horses...".

Second, 8000$ is not exactly GAS money... Not in my book at least.

Talking about GAS, and where most of my listed wish points come from: in the last 5 years I've went through (with the exception of various digital 135 cameras from Canon/Sony/Fuji and medium format - Hasselblad/Phase One, all with associated lenses, all gone now): Leica M2/ M3/ M5 x2/ M6/ M8 x3/ M-E Typ220/ M9P (kept it)/ M9 Monochrom (kept it)/ M240/ M-D262 (kept it)/ M262 (kept it).

So I consider I had the opportunities and time to form an opinion of what I want...

But mine is just an opinion, insignificant in the grand scheme of things...

Edited January 25, 2021 by criolf

[SJH]

I’ve had a little more ‘feedback’ - allegedly the M11 ‘IBIS’ is really the CL2 with IBIS delayed until Q4 of this year. Rationale being Covid delayed the major firmware updates for both the SL2-S and SL2 which is seen as a priority given the M10R’s/10M’s successful launch in 2020. Steven is right on the ball with the 28mm SL (good news) I believe but the M11 is still in ‘possible prototypes’ stage. The challenge is that the 40mb sensor is considered to be better than the 47 in an M so ok we add IBIS but what else will really get people to upgrade their M10P’s and M10R’s.

M11 looks more likely for H2 2022 as a result with the CL2 and IBIS (and IP54 weather protection) coming out in late 2021. I think this is seen to be a greater priority as a wider commercial opportunity - like the Q2 as a ‘gateway’ drug to Leica. M10 series owners could then purchase a smaller APSC ‘SL’  stabilized to use their M lenses on if they want. Ideal for travel to accompany an M also.

Could of course be complete nonsense as we all now that if anything is out further than about 3-6 months in terms of rumor launch dates it can turn out to be a hollow vessel!! 

[Steven]

5 minutes ago, SJH said:

I’ve had a little more ‘feedback’ - allegedly the M11 ‘IBIS’ is really the CL2 with IBIS delayed until Q4 of this year. Rationale being Covid delayed the major firmware updates for both the SL2-S and SL2 which is seen as a priority given the M10R’s/10M’s successful launch in 2020. Steven is right on the ball with the 28mm SL (good news) I believe but the M11 is still in ‘possible prototypes’ stage. The challenge is that the 40mb sensor is considered to be better than the 47 in an M so ok we add IBIS but what else will really get people to upgrade their M10P’s and M10R’s.

M11 looks more likely for H2 2022 as a result with the CL2 and IBIS (and IP54 weather protection) coming out in late 2021. I think this is seen to be a greater priority as a wider commercial opportunity - like the Q2 as a ‘gateway’ drug to Leica. M10 series owners could then purchase a smaller APSC ‘SL’  stabilized to use their M lenses on if they want. Ideal for travel to accompany an M also.

Could of course be complete nonsense as we all now that if anything is out further than about 3-6 months in terms of rumor launch dates it can turn out to be a hollow vessel!! 

👌🏻 

[jankap]

What about a built-in Close Focus Adapter? Of course not an adapter then. In combination with the LCD-screen.

 

[SJH]

57 minutes ago, SJH said:

I’ve had a little more ‘feedback’ - allegedly the M11 ‘IBIS’ is really the CL2 with IBIS delayed until Q4 of this year. Rationale being Covid delayed the major firmware updates for both the SL2-S and SL2 which is seen as a priority given the M10R’s/10M’s successful launch in 2020. Steven is right on the ball with the 28mm SL (good news) I believe but the M11 is still in ‘possible prototypes’ stage. The challenge is that the 40mb sensor is considered to be better than the 47 in an M so ok we add IBIS but what else will really get people to upgrade their M10P’s and M10R’s.

M11 looks more likely for H2 2022 as a result with the CL2 and IBIS (and IP54 weather protection) coming out in late 2021. I think this is seen to be a greater priority as a wider commercial opportunity - like the Q2 as a ‘gateway’ drug to Leica. M10 series owners could then purchase a smaller APSC ‘SL’  stabilized to use their M lenses on if they want. Ideal for travel to accompany an M also.

Could of course be complete nonsense as we all now that if anything is out further than about 3-6 months in terms of rumor launch dates it can turn out to be a hollow vessel!! 

Just to add the IP54 element did seem a bit odd as it would require new lenses with weather protection but this may well be what’s needed in the market now anyway and part of the longer term strategy. I suspect an IBIS equipped CL2 in 2021 would be ‘buy’ for many existing CL users but could tempt many from Fuji and Sony APSC for example. Like the Q2 probably a bigger market for this than essentially an IBIS equipped M10R in H2 2022. 

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[SiggiGun]

F2.8/28-70mm non stabilist (less big d less havy)  is good news. 

M11 too, if in the same M10 body! Probably based on the SL2-S sensor, I guess 

F2.0/28mm less interest for me, for wide angle, I continue to use M lenses even on the SL2