Do you like you M10-D?

[Steven]

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1 hour ago, evikne said:

At night I often simply set the aperture to max, the shutter speed to the longest I can allow, and the rest is done with ISO. And I have experienced that with the M10 sensor, there is hardly any difference if I set the correct ISO or leave it at base ISO (200) and raise the exposure in post.

I also set my aperture at f1.4 and SS at 1/30th (what's your max tolerance handheld ?), but that ISO trick is super interesting! 

I usually set it to Auto at night, meaning its the only variable of my settings, and let it auto select, with cap at 3200. If its 1600 or below I usually am fine with the results, and at 3200 I have to post process more heavily to get a cleaner result. 

So really, ISO is a value I can select in LR, and not have to worry about it while shooting ? 

[evikne]

At least up to 3 stops raising in post (equivalent to ISO 1600) is no problem for me. I made a test, and there was no significant difference. Four stops (equivalent to ISO 3200) is probably fine too. But I don't think the M10 sensor is fully "ISO invariant" (meaning the sensor captures the entire dynamic range at base ISO), so some differences may occur. But you should try it for yourself and see what you think. 

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[Guest Nowhereman]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

At night I often simply set the aperture to max, the shutter speed to the longest I can allow, and the rest is done with ISO. And I have experienced that with the M10 sensor, there is hardly any difference if I set the correct ISO or leave it at base ISO (200) and raise the exposure in post. The result is practically the same. So I often just leave the ISO at 200. Then it can't be easier: All night shots can be taken with the same setting, as long as you don't overexpose.

This is of course a controversial method and not suitable for everyone. But you could give it a try sometime. 

I would not call the reasonableness of this controversial: "pushing in post-processing" was the best way to shoot at night, or low light, with the M9. Jim Kasson showed, scientifically with graphs, on his website that the optimal for low-light photography with the M9 was to shoot at ISO 640 and then push exposure in post. With my Elmarit-21 ASPH on the M9, I shot at ISO 640, f/2.8 and the shutter at 1/30, 1/60, or 1/90 — depending if there was an chance of people or vehicles moving in the frame — and then pushed 1-3 stops, and sometimes even 4 stops. With the M10 it's okay to do that at ISO 200, though I often shoot at 3200 or 6400 at night. And shooting in this way would, I assume, "exposure without tears" with the M10-D.

M9 | Elmarit-21 ASPH | ISO 640 | f/2.8 | 1/60 sec | Pushed 1.3 stops in LR | Bangkok

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[RF’sDelight]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Steven:

In daylight, im fine with spot. It's at night that I really struggle. 

What does »at night« mean, except from very little light (most of the time)? Scenes in the street, dark rooms, sky and stars? Show me your typical night sujet I and tell you how I would meter it with an M.

(MM1 shot)

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[evikne]

14 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

With the M10 it's okay to do that at ISO 200, though I often shoot at 3200 or 6400 at night. And shooting in this way would, I assume, "exposure without tears" with the M10-D.

And this method is extra suitable with an M10-D, because you don't have to see the very underexposed images on the back screen. 🙂

[Steven]

1 hour ago, evikne said:

At least up to 3 stops raising in post (equivalent to ISO 1600) is no problem for me. I made a test, and there was no significant difference. Four stops (equivalent to ISO 3200) is probably fine too. But I don't think the M10 sensor is fully "ISO invariant" (meaning the sensor captures the entire dynamic range at base ISO), so some differences may occur. But you should try it for yourself and see what you think. 

There's one thing I don't understand then... once you're aperture and SS are set, what's the difference then between keep your ISO at 200 or leaving on Auto with a cap at 1600? 

Also, what's the slowest SS you shoot at at night handheld ? 

[Steven]

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29 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

With the M10 it's okay to do that at ISO 200, though I often shoot at 3200 or 6400 at night.

Extremely interesting ! But is there a difference when shooting at 200 and pushing at 1600 in post as opposed to shooting directly at 1600? Because if there's no difference, what's the point of setting a low ISO? 

I'd also be very curious to know which one is the sweet spot at night for the M10D? 

31 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

And shooting in this way would, I assume, "exposure without tears" with the M10-D.

I didn't understand the sense of this sentence. Could you rephrase ? or maybe rephrase in French ? 😂😂

By the way, I always love all the photos you post on this forum. You have a very cool and particular street style. Are you on insta ? 

[Steven]

31 minutes ago, RF’sDelight said:

What does »at night« mean, except from very little light (most of the time)? Scenes in the street, dark rooms, sky and stars? Show me your typical night sujet I and tell you how I would meter it with an M.

(MM1 shot)

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I meant street scenes, but I suppose all of the above applies. 

Id be curious to know how you expose your night scenes.. ? and in general where you get your reading from on all low light scenarios. 

Myself, in night scenes, I try to expose for the highlight, and I'm ok with the "underexposed" look of the final image. But that's what im into now. I used to want all the image lit. Maybe ill want something else next year. 

[evikne]

24 minutes ago, Steven said:

There's one thing I don't understand then... once you're aperture and SS are set, what's the difference then between keep your ISO at 200 or leaving on Auto with a cap at 1600? 

Also, what's the slowest SS you shoot at at night handheld ? 

If you leave the ISO at 200 you don't need to worry about overexposed images. If the Auto ISO gives you correctly or underexposed images, there is no particular advantage I think.

My slowest shutter speed varies a lot, depending on many circumstances: lens (focal length), if there are moving subjects (eventually how fast – and sometimes I even deliberately want some motion blur), if I can support the camera or arm against something, etc. But 1/30 sek. with a 35mm lens is a reasonable starting point. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by evikne

[Guest Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

But is there a difference when shooting at 200 and pushing at 1600 in post as opposed to shooting directly at 1600? Because if there's no difference, what's the point of setting a low ISO? 

Good question! I believe that the difference is that:
(1) If the "correct" exposure is close to what you shoot at ISO 1600, there is no difference shooting at ISO 200 and ISO 1600; however,
(2) If the exposure is not the "correct" one — which will often be the case at night — you would do better shooting at ISO 200 because that gives you more dynamic range, while the shot at ISO 1600 has much less dynamic range — thinking of "dynamic range" here as "possibility for adjustment".

 

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I didn't understand the sense of this sentence. Could you rephrase ? or maybe rephrase in French ? 😂😂

By the way, I always love all the photos you post on this forum. You have a very cool and particular street style. Are you on insta ? 

A literal translation would be: Et tirer de cette façon serait, je suppose, "l'exposition sans larmes" avec le M10-D. 
In English "xxxing without tears" means, idiomatically, doing something without difficulty. I think you didn't recognize "tears" and "larmes" and may have read "tears" as "déchirures".

Thanks for the kind words on the images. On Instagram, I'm @mitchalland. Actually, I've signed up to follow you, and was amazed to see that you have ½-million followers. How do you do that: c'est le cinéma? I have only 181 :-(. 
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Frog Leaping photobook

Edited January 22, 2021 by Nowhereman

[Guest Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

...Myself, in night scenes, I try to expose for the highlight, and I'm ok with the "underexposed" look of the final image. But that's what im into now. I used to want all the image lit. Maybe ill want something else next year.

Exposing for the highlights makes sense to me and often ends up with the same the type of exposure I wrote about above, with "pushing in post" to lift shadows, if necessary. It works well in dark Bangkok streets that often have no streetlights and are lit only by fluorescent lights from shops and food carts. BTW, fluorescent lights give beautiful colors: a cinematographer told me that there are Kino Flo lights for cinema that are used for this purpose. In the past, I always thought of fluorescent lights as ugly, as I was thinking of shopping centers that have flat, bright fluorescent light.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[tom0511]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb RF’sDelight:

Funny to read metering tips here. Anyway, without Live View (Visoflex) you get the »classic« center-weighted metering like the one you get since the M6 (arguably the M5). And it also varies which focal length is mounted on your metered M. Thorsten Overgaard explained it quite well for the M9 some years ago here. With Live View you get of course spot, center-weighted and multi-field metering. 

Having said that I’m 100% satisfied with my M10-D. Around 5.000 shots since the turn of 2018/2019 (Corona restrictions lowered my shooting possibilities  in 2020), main focal lengths 35, 50 and 28 mm (all Lux). Used my MM1 the other day, took a picture and put the camera away ... Well? ... Exactly, display didn't interest me. Consequence of the frequent M10-D use. 😄 Bon weekend everyone!

Since the M measures through the lens the area/angle of exposure metering is the same for every lens (like using a SLR) or what do you mean by varies with the focal length?

[Steven]

2 hours ago, evikne said:

you don't need to worry about overexposed images

Aren't overexposed images easily fixable in post ? I was under the understanding that bringing the exposure slide down would fix the image seamlessly, and that its rather when you underexpose that you lose details and add noise when adjusting ? 

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

you would do better shooting at ISO 200 because that gives you more dynamic range, while the shot at ISO 1600 has much less dynamic range — thinking of "dynamic range" here as "possibility for adjustment".

Ok, I guess this just answered my post above, I should have read everything first instead of having itchy fingers. 

stupid question then: is it the same for daylight ? should I always shoot at 200 and adjust later to have better DR? I know the answer but I don't understand why. 

[Jeff S]

39 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Since the M measures through the lens the area/angle of exposure metering is the same for every lens (like using a SLR) or what do you mean by varies with the focal length?

 

 

Jeff

[Steven]

1 hour ago, Nowhereman said:

Good question! I believe that the difference is that:
(1) If the "correct" exposure is close to what you shoot at ISO 1600, there is no difference shooting at ISO 200 and ISO 1600; however,
(2) If the exposure is not the "correct" one — which will often be the case at night — you would do better shooting at ISO 200 because that gives you more dynamic range, while the shot at ISO 1600 has much less dynamic range — thinking of "dynamic range" here as "possibility for adjustment".

 

A literal translation would be: Et tirer de cette façon serait, je suppose, "l'exposition sans larmes" avec le M10-D. 
In English "xxxing without tears" means, idiomatically, doing something without difficulty. I think you didn't recognize "tears" and "larmes" and may have read "tears" as "déchirures".

Thanks for the kind words on the images. On Instagram, I'm @mitchalland. Actually, I've signed up to follow you, and was amazed to see that you have ½-million followers. How do you do that: c'est le cinéma? I have only 181 :-(. 
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Frog Leaping photobook

Merci pour l'explication et merci pour le compliment. Just followed you back on insta. Regarding the half a million followers, cinema helped a bit, along with a 3 day trip in prison for flying a drone near the Eiffel Tower 360 meters above Paris. That made a bit of buzz 😂

Here are the results, don't do the same! 

By night: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BV5TVdBFsd5/

By day: 

https://www.instagram.com/p/BVU73J2lHzb/

young foolish me... 

[Guest Nowhereman]

35 minutes ago, Steven said:

...Just followed you back on insta. Regarding the half a million followers, cinema helped a bit, along with a 3 day trip in prison for flying a drone near the Eiffel Tower 360 meters above Paris. That made a bit of buzz 😂

I knew that there had to be an explanation! 

[RF’sDelight]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb tom0511:

Since the M measures through the lens the area/angle of exposure metering is the same for every lens (like using a SLR) or what do you mean by varies with the focal length?

I’m sorry, I described it a bit confusingly. But @Jeff S posted a link with a simple explanation.☝️Thanks!

Edited January 22, 2021 by RF’sDelight

[MRJohn]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

So with my M10D, it's an extra step I forgot to anticipate. Now, I have to use the center patch to get my focus point, then I have to use my center patch to go get my meter reading elsewhere, then (hoping that my focus point hasn't moved) I have to frame... Ughhhhh. 

You got it! 

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[Guest Nowhereman]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

...stupid question then: is it the same for daylight ? should I always shoot at 200 and adjust later to have better DR? I know the answer but I don't understand why. 

There may be other answers but, it seems to me, that in the daytime it's easier to expose and, therefore, less need to use the "push-in-post" method — and less need use the low-light solutions that require higher ISOs in order to keep to a shutter speed that is not so low as to cause blur from camera shake or subject motion. 

While most people, for daylight shots, would keep to the ISO that gives the optimum DR of the camera (ISO 200 for the M10), I often shoot street photography with the M10 at ISO 3200 or 6400, either because I'm constantly moving from a sunlit area to deep shade, or because I like the look of the M10 image shot a ISO 3200/6400. I shot the image below at ISO 6400 because the market area under the awning was very dark, although the overcast sky was luminous; it's pushed by one-stop in post.

M10 | Summaron-M 1:5.6/28 | ISO 6400 | f/5.6 | 1/180 sec | Bangkok

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