adan Posted January 21, 2021 Share #41 Posted January 21, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 4 minutes ago, Cobram said: I think we should complain 🙂 I accepted it and will not move on 🙂 I work in electrical/mechanical engineering company. For us it is 100 times better if our customers complain about our products than if they just throw it away and buy another brand. You will be surpised how many hidden problems/errors where fixed because our customers complained about them. We are talking about the M9/M-E CCD (see subforum title). A camera out of production for nearly a decade. A sensor with nearly 20-year-old core technology. Might just as well complain to Ford that your 1990 Escort "appears" to develop flat tires more often than other cars. What exactly could Ford "fix" at this point? If we are going to talk engineering, fine. Let's have engineering-grade complaints. What is the failure rate per 100,000? Hard numbers, please. "....the well noted failures which seem a standard deviation or two off what other manufacturers experience" isn't engineering-grade analysis. It is a consumer-grade "anecdotal" WAG, posing as engineering. Do your company analyses use such precise technical measurements as "seems"? I hope not. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 21, 2021 Posted January 21, 2021 Hi adan, Take a look here Vertical lines?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ko.Fe. Posted January 21, 2021 Share #42 Posted January 21, 2021 1 hour ago, pedaes said: What do you suggest he does? I know you love negativity, but reality is 'it is what it is' - accept it or move on. I love honesty. Adan response has nothing to do with Leica QC and testing. Would it be snafu with M8 sensor, which was not completely resolved with M9 sensors or similar to M9 issues reoccurring with M10. I'm fine with realizing what Leica is not on top of electronics, software, firmware design and support. Small manufacturing, expensive labor and so on. But M cameras are cute and unique. I'm not fine then lies are told here than all cameras are the same and lasts only five years and then we are just lucky. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted January 21, 2021 Share #43 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 48 minutes ago, adan said: We are talking about the M9/M-E CCD (see subforum title). A camera out of production for nearly a decade.... Another non-true statement. M-E 220 is out from production by 2016. My M-E 220 is made at the second half on 2015. Edited January 21, 2021 by Ko.Fe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted January 21, 2021 Share #44 Posted January 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said: I'm not fine then lies are told here than all cameras are the same and lasts only five years and then we are just lucky. I think we have been round in a circle and are both saying the same thing! Do you mean 2015 - it comes before 2016😑 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 21, 2021 Share #45 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) On 1/18/2021 at 12:27 PM, D A V I D said: ...As this is a second hand camera (of course) from a Leica dealer in Brussels, I(ll bring it back to the dealer (warranty 1 year). So not a big deal. However, it confirms that paying the premium on buying second hand on warranty from a dealer has its advantages... Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but, yes, having a guarantee is a Very Good Thing and, as has been mentioned previously, a dead (a.k.a. 'hot') pixel issue is fixed easily and, once fixed, will pose no further problems. I actually experienced one on my absolutely brand-spanking-new v2-replaced sensor which, subsequently, was rectified as soon as it was brought to the attention of Those In Control. The M9-P is a truly magnificent camera. I wish you good fortune with it! One thing to bear in mind is that if travelling by aeroplane several manufacturers warn about the potential risk of Gamma Rays destroying the odd pixel or three... In respect to failures of non-Leica-brand equipment; I'm currently on my second pro-level Canon wide-to-portrait zoom and my third (ditto) portrait-to-long-focus zoom because of repeated failures of the electrical ribbons 'twixt "internals". No 'Headline Stories' on the internet, however, so perhaps Canon's lens designs don't have any in-built manufacturing flaws? Just a thought. Philip. Edited January 21, 2021 by pippy Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted January 21, 2021 Share #46 Posted January 21, 2021 32 minutes ago, pippy said: Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but, yes, having a guarantee is a Very Good Thing and, as has been mentioned previously, a dead (a.k.a. 'hot') pixel issue is fixed easily and, once fixed, will pose no further problems. I actually experienced one on my absolutely brand-spanking-new v2-replaced sensor which, subsequently, was rectified as soon as it was brought to the attention of Those In Control. The M9-P is a truly magnificent camera. I wish you good fortune with it! One thing to bear in mind is that if travelling by aeroplane several manufacturers warn about the potential risk of Gamma Rays destroying the odd pixel or three... In respect to failures of non-Leica-brand equipment; I'm currently on my second pro-level Canon wide-to-portrait zoom and my third (ditto) portrait-to-long-focus zoom because of repeated failures of the electrical ribbons 'twixt "internals". No 'Headline Stories' on the internet, however, so perhaps Canon's lens designs don't have any in-built manufacturing flaws? Just a thought. Philip. Leica EO2 error? Canon EF L lenses are not extremely well build. After years of use my EF 50L was falling apart physically due to the lens/AF block been hold to exterior parts via sticky glue. But EF L aren't arm and leg either. Meanwhile, how many of your Canon cameras needed repairs with similar to M9 issues? Again, hot pixel mapping. This is how it is done with old EOS cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted January 21, 2021 Share #47 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) 59 minutes ago, pippy said: Sorry to bring this thread back on topic but, yes, having a guarantee is a Very Good Thing and, as has been mentioned previously, a dead (a.k.a. 'hot') pixel issue is fixed easily and, once fixed, will pose no further problems. I actually experienced one on my absolutely brand-spanking-new v2-replaced sensor which, subsequently, was rectified as soon as it was brought to the attention of Those In Control. The M9-P is a truly magnificent camera. I wish you good fortune with it! One thing to bear in mind is that if travelling by aeroplane several manufacturers warn about the potential risk of Gamma Rays destroying the odd pixel or three... In respect to failures of non-Leica-brand equipment; I'm currently on my second pro-level Canon wide-to-portrait zoom and my third (ditto) portrait-to-long-focus zoom because of repeated failures of the electrical ribbons 'twixt "internals". No 'Headline Stories' on the internet, however, so perhaps Canon's lens designs don't have any in-built manufacturing flaws? Just a thought. Philip. Dear Philip, I agree with you 100%. Any manufacturer can produce bad samples...this is life 🙂 I experienced problems with Leica (digital), Fuji (digital), Lomo (analog), Olympus (analog) etc 🙂 I just want to reasure the thread opener there is nothing wrong to fear potential electronic problems and just wanted to encourage him to use the camera and enjoy photos as well as rangefinder experience... and not to leave Leica just because some forum members said so in this thread. I experienced similar problem and I think I know how he feels. I still own ME220 and I'm very happy with the camera. Again my previos comment: As per other comments, just shoot with Leica, look at your files and be happy. Leica is such a gratificating system when it works. Stay with Leica (at least lenses). You will not be dissapointed by the results. Adan, why are you so angry and aggressive in your answers? I suppose you are not Leica stakeholder, you don't need to engage so emotionally in defending Leica reputation... There will always be happy and disapointed customers. Edited January 21, 2021 by Cobram 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 21, 2021 Share #48 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ko.Fe. said: Leica EO2 error? ... I didn't have any error message, Ko.Fe.; the lenses, in each case, simply couldn't manage to focus nor allow the camera to shoot at all. Not even when set to Full Manual Mode. Having googled the issue I was surprised to see that my experience was hardly unique - and that's putting it mildly. Dozens of videos showing strip-down and rebuild 'fun' and having also searched for any possible replacement 'ribbons' I was (initially) surprised to discover that there were a great many sites supplying these very same ribbons - such is their propensity to failure. My camera bodies have been fine but as they are (in effect) my primary source of income they tend to be updated on a far more regular basis than my Leica M bodies (no kidding!) and so there are no meaningful nor comparable 'Long Term' studies from which I can make an assessment. Sorry. Philip. Edited January 21, 2021 by pippy 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted January 21, 2021 Share #49 Posted January 21, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Cobram said: Adan, why are you so angry and aggressive in your answers? I suppose you are not Leica stakeholder, you don't need to engage so emotionally in defending Leica reputation... There will always be happy and disapointed customers. You may be confusing "no-nonsense" with aggressive. I see them as different. I'm not a Leica stakeholder - I am a stakeholder in precision and clarity when discussing engineering and technical and business subjects. Too much "garbage science" in the world as it is. That has or may cost a lot of lives - so it is a bad habit to tolerate, regardless of subject. (When the subject is the art of photography, you'll find me more of a barrel of laughs. ) Edited January 21, 2021 by adan 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted January 21, 2021 Share #50 Posted January 21, 2021 46 minutes ago, pippy said: I didn't have any error message, Ko.Fe.; the lenses, in each case, simply couldn't manage to focus nor allow the camera to shoot at all. Not even when set to Full Manual Mode. Having googled the issue I was surprised to see that my experience was hardly unique - and that's putting it mildly. Dozens of videos showing strip-down and rebuild 'fun' and having also searched for any possible replacement 'ribbons' I was (initially) surprised to discover that there were a great many sites supplying these very same ribbons - such is their propensity to failure. My camera bodies have been fine but as they are (in effect) my primary source of income they tend to be updated on a far more regular basis than my Leica M bodies (no kidding!) and so there are no meaningful nor comparable 'Long Term' studies from which I can make an assessment. Sorry. Philip. Where are even videos for how to replace shutter assembly by DIY on 5D! And shutters are available for very reasonable price. Even on eBay. Look what I have found on eBay for Leica EO2 error. https://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-New-Lens-Inner-Aperture-Flex-Cable-Ribbon-For-Leica-E02-Minilux-Camera-Part-/253939043314 Some good people, not Leica, stepped up. And as we know, another good people, not Leica, have stepped up for corroded cover glass on Leica M9 sensors. Who knows, if they could make exact replica of Leica Cron 35 v1 one day they will make M9 replica . 2 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pippy Posted January 22, 2021 Share #51 Posted January 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Ko.Fe. said: ...Who knows, if they could make exact replica of Leica Cron 35 v1 one day they will make M9 replica ... Personally I hope it will happen in around 15 years time when the hankering after 'The Early Days of Full-Frame Digital-M Cameras' truly hits the collector's market and prices for the 'Original Series' examples soar to stratospheric levels!... Philip. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted January 22, 2021 Share #52 Posted January 22, 2021 9 hours ago, adan said: You may be confusing "no-nonsense" with aggressive. I see them as different. I'm not a Leica stakeholder - I am a stakeholder in precision and clarity when discussing engineering and technical and business subjects. Too much "garbage science" in the world as it is. That has or may cost a lot of lives - so it is a bad habit to tolerate, regardless of subject. (When the subject is the art of photography, you'll find me more of a barrel of laughs. ) Dear Adan, I think I understand what you mean and I'm happy this debate become friendly 🙂 I think there is too much "twitter" communication in the world today. By "twitter" I mean short not proven statements etc. About precision and clarity I agree with you. I started my career as a analytical chemist in laboratory developing new analytical methods, moved on to today very popular biotechnology field and working in R&D department developing materials for purification of bio stuff (step in production of popular bio-drugs) and ended as a material specialist in automotive company. In the meantime I was working on my PhD in material sciences but never finished it (kids, building house etc). Why I say all this? Because what I realised is: years ago as an analytical chemist developing new methods we were supposed to check and validate accuracy, precision, limit of detection, limit of quantification, robustness, selectivity etc. in order to proof your method and results. When entering biotech world they were making laugh of me. So I changed my profession and started a career as material specialist (that's why I know about heat paste, conformal coatings, fluxes, contamination etc about electronics and can comment). Belive me or not at the beginning they accused me that my reports are too scientific 🙂 Nowadays EVERY company (at least in Europe) performs cost reductions (which is not bad by itself). I can say by 100% confidence that engineering thinking is devastated by low cost economic principles. It is a game of developing new cheaper suppliers and when they really understand and produce good products they rise prices and you have to find and develop new (poor) supplier. My job in last years was checking new suppliers quality and instructing them. First China, after that India and now I'm waiting which country will be the next target, maybe South Africa... 🙂 And of course you can imagine the quality of product with at least 100 sub assemblies and as many suppliers can suffer by this behaviour. It is a very dangerous game of what is enough good, cheap,... This is the world/life 🙂 Nobody cares any more about precision, accuracy,... Yes everybody talks about quality but nobody want to pay for it 🙂 I was very frustrated years ago with my analytical chemist mentality, but now I accepted "new reality" 🙂 And when I lowered my expectations towards suppliers my bosses become very happy, previously they accused me of delaying projects because I was just demanding quality as it was defined in specs and easily achived by former (expensive 🙂 ) suppliers. This is at least in Europe " new engineering reality" 🙂 I think that also photography suffers from "instagram" quality. Fast and furious society. 🙂 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 22, 2021 Share #53 Posted January 22, 2021 15 hours ago, adan said: We are talking about the M9/M-E CCD (see subforum title). A camera out of production for nearly a decade. A sensor with nearly 20-year-old core technology. Might just as well complain to Ford that your 1990 Escort "appears" to develop flat tires more often than other cars. What exactly could Ford "fix" at this point? If we are going to talk engineering, fine. Let's have engineering-grade complaints. What is the failure rate per 100,000? Hard numbers, please. "....the well noted failures which seem a standard deviation or two off what other manufacturers experience" isn't engineering-grade analysis. It is a consumer-grade "anecdotal" WAG, posing as engineering. Do your company analyses use such precise technical measurements as "seems"? I hope not. Quite. Especially as dead pixels have absolutely nothing to do with camera engineering, but with the immutable scientific fact that high-energy Neutrons interact with Silicon structures... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted January 22, 2021 Share #54 Posted January 22, 2021 It is totally out of topic but maybe it will be interesting to see... Few years ago I was sent to India as auditor to check the process of zinc coated parts supplier. Of course they told me the supplier comply to ISO and TÜV certificate which was true, see photo below from the gate of the facility... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now the reality was something totally different. And yes this is the reality I was not aware until I was sent around the word as an auditor. It changed comletely my trust in standars, certificates and made me thinking what are we doing. Looking for cheapest price, ignoring quality and most important human beings behind this price... btw. they allowed me to take photos... otherwise I wouldn't post because I really respect Indian people... very nice memories. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Now the reality was something totally different. And yes this is the reality I was not aware until I was sent around the word as an auditor. It changed comletely my trust in standars, certificates and made me thinking what are we doing. Looking for cheapest price, ignoring quality and most important human beings behind this price... btw. they allowed me to take photos... otherwise I wouldn't post because I really respect Indian people... very nice memories. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/317048-vertical-lines/?do=findComment&comment=4123112'>More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted January 23, 2021 Share #55 Posted January 23, 2021 Leica Camera AG M9 batteries are made in China, BTW. Take cheapest supplier, charge highest price. Very low morality, but hey it is all about modern "precision and clarity when discussing engineering and technical and business subjects". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 24, 2021 Share #56 Posted January 24, 2021 Mine are made in Indonesia... 🙄 Guess where Mercedes EV car batteries are made. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
boojum Posted January 25, 2021 Share #57 Posted January 25, 2021 11 hours ago, jaapv said: Mine are made in Indonesia... 🙄 Guess where Mercedes EV car batteries are made. Is this meant to indicate quality? Are both batteries made by the same supplier, to the same standards and subject to the same QC? Or is this apples and oranges? Just curious. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 25, 2021 Share #58 Posted January 25, 2021 No, but the fact that my 2006 M8 batteries are still working indicates quality. It is meant to point out the silliness of linking quality to the country of origin. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobram Posted January 25, 2021 Share #59 Posted January 25, 2021 On 1/23/2021 at 4:20 PM, Ko.Fe. said: Leica Camera AG M9 batteries are made in China, BTW. Take cheapest supplier, charge highest price. Very low morality, but hey it is all about modern "precision and clarity when discussing engineering and technical and business subjects". Ko.Fe: I think it will be rather generalising to conclude all Made in China goods are cheap and of low quality. On the contrary Chinese manufacturers are more and more sophisticated and the products they produce are better and better. I can tell you from experience (audits in chinese factories) that they can produce equal or even better products comparing to European manufacturers. The only question is price (or maybe how much Chinese goverment is willing to subsidize 🙂 ). In my previos posts I just wanted to express my (practical) experience about "engineering precision" and my experience about standards/certificates, etc. I think world is not black and white (although I love B&W photography 🙂 ) but rather grey. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 25, 2021 Share #60 Posted January 25, 2021 It may be interesting to note that both Leica Microsystems and Zeiss produce operating microscopes in China. Leica in Suzhou and Zeiss in Ningbo Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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