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[boojum]

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10 hours ago, pedaes said:

What you need to remember is those of us with no problems don't post that news, whereas some come here and their first post is about their 'problem'. I still have a M9 from new (sensor replaced under warranty with new type) and have had zero other problems. Same with M(240), now sold, and M10 - zero problems so far.

This has occurred to me.  If you read the posts following yours you will see why this is a specious observation.  Perhaps in the zeal at Wetzlar to curry an attraction to the traditional form factor with an electronic interior they overlooked some things.  I would really hate to think that they built these cameras knowing they would have a pretty high tendency to fail compared to other cameras.  I like the CCD cameras a lot.  And the M240 is not too shabby either.  But to live under a Damoclesian sword of electronic failure is not fun.  And to say that it has not yet happened is like saying that a spare tire is needless because I have not had a flat tire yet.

Granted, Wetzlar did fix the failures free, for a while.  But the problem still lurks.  And it seems to be related to overheating.  From my perspective of working in the computer business as a programmer and systems analyst I can tell you that if I delivered a product with the software/firmware/hardware failures like these cameras I'd be out on the bricks looking for another job.  It is living on a razor's edge because the cameras are great if not pushed too hard.  From what I gather if these digital Barnack form factor cameras are used as if they were film cameras there is little chance of having a problem.

I like the images better than what I get from my Sony Alpha with a 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss.  The Sony has a great sharp image and bright colors but the colors are not poetic like the ones out of the M8.2 and the M240 and the soon to arrive M9. It's a compromise.  There is no perfect camera which complies to everyone's needs.  For thoughtful images it looks like Leica.  

[boojum]

I think what troubles me most is that this problem will damage the Leica brand.  It has taken a long time to build and to maintain.  And while the cameras can seem to take a lot of physical abuse heat seems to bedevil them. 

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[adan]

Depends on how one defines "heat."

The M9 manual lists 104°F/40°C as the maximum operating-environment temperature. As does the M10. It is hardly a secret.

The one time one of my M9s developed a couple of "new" stuck-pixel lines was after I left it on a car floor in summer sunshine. When I retrieved it, it was almost too hot to hold - likely about 65°C/150°F.

Despite that gross violation of the operating specs, it functioned normally in all other regards for 7.5 years (2009-2017, when I traded it for an M10).

_____________

For the record, a digital camera is essentially a computer with a lens. According to our IRS, computers are assumed to have a 5-year life (they can be written off completely over 5 years). Doesn't matter what the logo on the front says.

Usually one gets lucky and it will operate for longer than that - but it will always be on borrowed time.

I bought a Canon 5D2 last year for my long lenses. I notice Canon put that model on their "End of Service life" list in 2019 - they won't repair them. If it develops a problem, it is a paperweight. Until then, it takes great pictures.

That is the reality of digital cameras - no matter who makes them at what price. One accepts it and lives with it. If one can't live with it, one gets an M-A (or a Nikon F or a Leicaflex SL ) and shoots film.

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, adan said:

Depends on how one defines "heat."

The M9 manual lists 104°F/40°C as the maximum operating-environment temperature. As does the M10. It is hardly a secret.

The one time one of my M9s developed a couple of "new" stuck-pixel lines was after I left it on a car floor in summer sunshine. When I retrieved it, it was almost too hot to hold - likely about 65°C/150°F.

Despite that gross violation of the operating specs, it functioned normally in all other regards for 7.5 years (2009-2017, when I traded it for an M10).

_____________

For the record, a digital camera is essentially a computer with a lens. According to our IRS, computers are assumed to have a 5-year life (they can be written off completely over 5 years). Doesn't matter what the logo on the front says.

Usually one gets lucky and it will operate for longer than that - but it will always be on borrowed time.

I bought a Canon 5D2 last year for my long lenses. I notice Canon put that model on their "End of Service life" list in 2019 - they won't repair them. If it develops a problem, it is a paperweight. Until then, it takes great pictures.

That is the reality of digital cameras - no matter who makes them at what price. One accepts it and lives with it. If one can't live with it, one gets an M-A (or a Nikon F or a Leicaflex SL ) and shoots film.

Camera is closer to specialized device with firmware than computer. I have seen specialized devices with computer mother boards, but it was no OS, just firmware. And so are dedicated modular solutions which consist of boards (in common chassis) with unique hardware components and common programmable FPGAs.

I'm typing it from Panasonic Toughbook CF-52. It is more than ten years old and works better than modern laptops. HP has update list for every component of their desktops. I updated my seven years old HP by using of this list.

I work at broadcasting company and only those who are getting computers every five years are bunch on the top. Don't know any technical reason for it. Workers computers and computers in the broadcast, production chain are more than five years old.

At one of my previous companies I went coast to coast in Canada and updated computers installed around 1998 which were running non stop until 2005-2008. Those computers where running automation software for TV channels. 

Today real reason for computers been not good is due to updates of two most common OS and any other common software which demands more and more computing power. Which is often just sloppy programming, not dramatically new features. LR, for example.

But cameras don't need OS and software updates this often. 

And also here is parts manufacturing. It is more profitable to make, sell new parts and discontinue old ones. 

Personally, to me and where I'm it is matter who makes camera. My 5D MKII was serviced at manufacturer's direct service located nearby. Not in another country or even continent. This is why here is zero Leica of any type at local events (excluding non pro me with M-E   )

5D MK II EOP was 2012. EOS - 2019. Not this bad. Leica ditched M9 customers with no sensors by 2020 after EOP with M-E 220 in 2015. Only after getting non-defective sensors in 2016...

Edited January 20, 2021 by Ko.Fe.

[boojum]

5 hours ago, adan said:

Depends on how one defines "heat."

The M9 manual lists 104°F/40°C as the maximum operating-environment temperature. As does the M10. It is hardly a secret.

The one time one of my M9s developed a couple of "new" stuck-pixel lines was after I left it on a car floor in summer sunshine. When I retrieved it, it was almost too hot to hold - likely about 65°C/150°F.

Despite that gross violation of the operating specs, it functioned normally in all other regards for 7.5 years (2009-2017, when I traded it for an M10).

_____________

For the record, a digital camera is essentially a computer with a lens. According to our IRS, computers are assumed to have a 5-year life (they can be written off completely over 5 years). Doesn't matter what the logo on the front says.

Usually one gets lucky and it will operate for longer than that - but it will always be on borrowed time.

I bought a Canon 5D2 last year for my long lenses. I notice Canon put that model on their "End of Service life" list in 2019 - they won't repair them. If it develops a problem, it is a paperweight. Until then, it takes great pictures.

That is the reality of digital cameras - no matter who makes them at what price. One accepts it and lives with it. If one can't live with it, one gets an M-A (or a Nikon F or a Leicaflex SL ) and shoots film.

I doubt neither your sincerity nor your conviction. But do you think that principles of accounting make a valid argument for camera electronics life?  And that five year span may even be accelerated depreciation.  I have a ten year-old Dell box which is running just fine.  And I am sorry to see this same defense being trotted out again and again because it is just not true.  I have very old digital cameras, non-Leica, which fire up and work without a whimper.  I may be an exceptional case in having non-Leica digitals which work well past the five year mark.  But I doubt it.  That is why the impending well-documented electronic Leica failure has me disturbed.  I'll continue to use the ones I have and the M9 soon to be here.  But always in the back of my mind is the voice saying, "You are toting a very expensive paper weight."  I admit it is a trade-off but the question remains if other manufacturers can make cameras with electronics that last why is this impossible to do for Leitz?  And since this overheating is a well-documented problem why has it not been solved?  Take some guys off the lens team and put them on hardware and software.

I know that Leitz can solve this problem as have other manufacturers.  Not to does not enhance their reputation at all.  I don't want that old German saying, "Es ist immer Deutscher besser" to become "Es ist immer Deutscher besser fast"

[Ko.Fe.]

11 hours ago, boojum said:

I doubt neither your sincerity nor your conviction. But do you think that principles of accounting make a valid argument for camera electronics life?  And that five year span may even be accelerated depreciation.  I have a ten year-old Dell box which is running just fine.  And I am sorry to see this same defense being trotted out again and again because it is just not true.  I have very old digital cameras, non-Leica, which fire up and work without a whimper.  I may be an exceptional case in having non-Leica digitals which work well past the five year mark.  But I doubt it.  That is why the impending well-documented electronic Leica failure has me disturbed.  I'll continue to use the ones I have and the M9 soon to be here.  But always in the back of my mind is the voice saying, "You are toting a very expensive paper weight."  I admit it is a trade-off but the question remains if other manufacturers can make cameras with electronics that last why is this impossible to do for Leitz?  And since this overheating is a well-documented problem why has it not been solved?  Take some guys off the lens team and put them on hardware and software.

I know that Leitz can solve this problem as have other manufacturers.  Not to does not enhance their reputation at all.  I don't want that old German saying, "Es ist immer Deutscher besser" to become "Es ist immer Deutscher besser fast"

 

I have several much more than ten years old digital cameras. And they just work. Including OEM batteries, which are holding charge just like new. But those are made in Japan batteries, just as most of the cameras I have.

My mother-in-law brought some next to vintage digital camera in 2020. Under 2MP and with some floppy like memory card. The only thing which wasn't working well was AF. But maybe it is how AF worked back then on those earlier digital cameras.

 

[boojum]

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I don't want to be the Beckmesser to Leitz's Stolzing.  OTOH I do not want to accept in silence nor make excuses for the well noted failures which seem a standard deviation or two off what other manufacturers experience.  Leica is touted as the world's best.  To me that means more than a shutter and a lens.  That used to be enough because the only missing element was film made by other people.  Now the "film" is electronic and made, subbed or purchased outright by the manufacturer, in this case Leitz.  It has been better than fourteen years now since the first Leica digital, the M8.  I am not an electrical engineer but I would hazard that any motivated manufacturer would have solved this problem over the course of fourteen years.  That is not an excessively high expectation.  Granted Leica did free repair/upgrades for a while.  Were these cameras automobiles there would have been a recall and repair on them all.  This is why industries are regulated.

I'll say no more as it will just piss off the fan boys and achieve nothing in Wetzlar. It is something which has not been addressed nor does it seem it ever will be.  It is what it is.

[adan]

Thank you for that last comment. I agree that Leica has had past problems in entering the digital arena.

But - I assume you remember that only 5 years before the M9 came out (and 2 years before the M8), Leica stated they did not believe a sensor compatable with existing short-back-focus rangefinder lenses was possible at all, with the existing architectures. And most of the early (M8/M9) sensor problems stem from trying to solve those very special, Leica-M-specific, problems.

Mostly related to the shallow angle-of-incidence imaging with compact RF wideangles 15-28mm from the sensor, with which a generic sensor of the time would have produced color stains, extreme vignetting, and blurry corners.

So Leica more or less had a choice.

- Tell Leica owners "Here is a brand-new digital M - but you'll have to throw away most of your existing Leica M/LTM 21/24/28/35mm lenses, dating back to 1930. And buy digital-friendly new ones."

- Or - reinvent much of a digital sensor package from scratch, in 2-3 years, on their own, since no one else had to solve the same problems. New ultra-thin cover glass with incorporated UV/IR filter; radially-offset microlenses; no anti-alias/moiré filtering (although they planned to do that anyway - who wants intentionally-blurred pictures?)

And find a manufacturer who could - and was willing to - build that "bespoke" sensor in Leica-sized batches (5K at a time instead of 250K).

I.E. Kodak (in the case of the DMR/M8/M9 CCDs), who were already building small-run medium-format sensors with no AA (low-pass) filter (2002 technology), and could replicate that pixel architecture in smaller sensors, along with Leica's special overlays.

In other words, Leica and their partners busted their butts to create a sensor that worked competently with my 1980 21mm Elmarit-M at all - compared to which a few minor pixel artifacts nine years after production are a spit in the ocean.

[boojum]

Leica's decision has not worked well for them has it?  The problem seems to be not lens angles of incidence but rather the circuit boards which overheat quite easily.  Remember the Six P's?  Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance. These were not well designed and executed.  The proof is in the forums.  The proof is in the gratis and then charged repairs for the Leitz bad designs.  Let's just own it and stop dancing around it. Perhaps if Leitz had designed a new body which could absorb and then dissipate heat none of this would have happened.  My pin-headed view is that marketing drove engineering.  Or maybe accounting.  Not a recipe for success.  Because corner cutting can lead to failures.  My mind is staggered that this is the truth of the Leica digitals.  I do not know about the M10.  Maybe the overheating problem has been solved, at the end of a fourteen year nosebleed.

You see I have just arrived here in the Leica world.  I have been in the world of other cameras which just plain work since the 1960's.  These failures are novel and unsettling.  I agree that bad pixels are not a significant problem.  I am not sure I ever suggested that it is.  Circuit board failures are a major design flaw.

I have an M9 coming.  I really like the image it delivers.  But knowing what I know I will always have my fingers crossed when I use it.  Not fun. Ditto with the M8.2 and the M240.  Think about it, what is purported to be the best camera in the world has to be coddled so that it does not overheat.  Perhaps I expected too much.

But I am tired of talking about this.  There are the defenders who admit no wrong in Wetzlar.  Fine.  They have there view of the world and I have mine.  From the tenor and flow of these threads the two sides are irreconcilable.  I'm done.  But my trust of Leica electronics engineering is minuscule.  My trust, not yours.  

No hard feelings, just my opinions.  Cheers/Santé/Tschüß/Proost

[Jean-Michel]

Bit of reality check: this thread has comments from a grand total of ten (10) members, including myself. To paraphrase Mark Twain: the news of M’s sensor deaths  has been greatly exaggerated. 
 

My M9 and M-P continue to live happy lives, and so do I. I also have a perfectly working Canon 5d-2 and it equally continues to give excellent service, but the 24-105 lens did require surgery when it stopped communicating with the camera.

 

[jdlaing]

Electronic and other problems happen over all camera brands and not just Leica. I’ve had Canon cameras go bad off the warranty and they just politely said that’s too bad.

The M9 had cover glass problems and Leica stepped up and fixed them off warranty for what is a long time in the industry. Leica also carries a warranty  two to thee times as long as the rest of the manufacturers. 
 

Equating cameras to cars and across the board recalls has no merit as using a camera is not dangerous to your well being unless you are doing street photography and get a fist in your face.

There is a constant low whine from a lot of people that think that if a piece of equipment is at a certain price point it should be flawless. Nothing can be further from the truth. If the camera is too expensive or you have to wring your hands and dwell on the price before you buy it..........don’t buy it. There are other choices.

The percentages of problems compared to the numbers sold is actually quite low for Leica.

[pedaes]

4 hours ago, boojum said:

circuit boards which overheat quite easily.

Sorry. but you really are talking up problems and generalising to a point that is not credible. 

I am sorry you have spent money on Leica as it is clearly not the brand for you. Maybe you should have done more research before jumping in and understood the challenges of developing a digital Leica M as touched on by Adan.

Not sure you can stick with it feeling as you do, so maybe best to take the hit and move on.

Good luck with finding what you are looking for.

[Ko.Fe.]

4 hours ago, Jean-Michel said:

Bit of reality check: this thread has comments from a grand total of ten (10) members, including myself. To paraphrase Mark Twain: the news of M’s sensor deaths  has been greatly exaggerated. 
 

My M9 and M-P continue to live happy lives, and so do I. I also have a perfectly working Canon 5d-2 and it equally continues to give excellent service, but the 24-105 lens did require surgery when it stopped communicating with the camera.

 

Where are threads, reports and polls with/from much more than ten people. All other the internet. But it is each individual choice. To see the world or wear horse blinds.

[Ko.Fe.]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

Sorry. but you really are talking up problems and generalising to a point that is not credible. 

I am sorry you have spent money on Leica as it is clearly not the brand for you. Maybe you should have done more research before jumping in and understood the challenges of developing a digital Leica M as touched on by Adan.

Not sure you can stick with it feeling as you do, so maybe best to take the hit and move on.

Good luck with finding what you are looking for.

Typical "go where you come from" respond. 

 

[Cobram]

On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2021 at 10:03 PM, boojum said:

This has occurred to me.  If you read the posts following yours you will see why this is a specious observation.  Perhaps in the zeal at Wetzlar to curry an attraction to the traditional form factor with an electronic interior they overlooked some things.  I would really hate to think that they built these cameras knowing they would have a pretty high tendency to fail compared to other cameras.  I like the CCD cameras a lot.  And the M240 is not too shabby either.  But to live under a Damoclesian sword of electronic failure is not fun.  And to say that it has not yet happened is like saying that a spare tire is needless because I have not had a flat tire yet.

Granted, Wetzlar did fix the failures free, for a while.  But the problem still lurks.  And it seems to be related to overheating.  From my perspective of working in the computer business as a programmer and systems analyst I can tell you that if I delivered a product with the software/firmware/hardware failures like these cameras I'd be out on the bricks looking for another job.  It is living on a razor's edge because the cameras are great if not pushed too hard.  From what I gather if these digital Barnack form factor cameras are used as if they were film cameras there is little chance of having a problem.

I like the images better than what I get from my Sony Alpha with a 55mm f/1.8 Zeiss.  The Sony has a great sharp image and bright colors but the colors are not poetic like the ones out of the M8.2 and the M240 and the soon to arrive M9. It's a compromise.  There is no perfect camera which complies to everyone's needs.  For thoughtful images it looks like Leica.  

As an M-E 220 owner I understand very well what you want to say : "... But to live under a Damoclesian sword of electronic failure is not fun...."

Every camera can fail due to electronic error. I even entered Leica world due to a problem with my Fuji camera and long service times. Been for few months in Leica I faced sensor corrosion (who didn't 🙂 ) and my camera went to Wetzlar for I think 4 months. I also had to pay some additional money for the repair, just sensor was free. Suddenly I realised quality of Leica cameras and especially service times as well as service costs are not in alignment with prices of their products.

I still own M-E and bought SL this year as a back up camera. Was thinking to trade in M-E and upgrade to M10 but I'm not sure I can leave without M camera for 3-6 months if anything goes wrong and needs to visit Wetzlar service center. 

About heat dissipation: I don't know if Leica is using heat paste but this is very effective and usual procedure to solve heat problems within electronics components. And it can add 5 EUR additional cost to the product (speaking of Loctite, Bergquist and other well known (expensive) brands). 

I still think Leica lenses are really good (best for my taste) and it is a shame they have such (reported) problems with cameras. 

As per other comments, just shoot with Leica, look at your files and be happy. Leica is such a gratificating system when it works. Stay with Leica (at least lenses). You will not be dissapointed by the results.

[pedaes]

1 minute ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Typical "go where you come from" respond. 

 

What do you suggest he does?  I know you love negativity, but reality is 'it is what it is' - accept it or move on.

[Cobram]

4 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Typical "go where you come from" respond. 

 

I agree with you Ko.Fe. 

[Cobram]

8 minutes ago, pedaes said:

What do you suggest he does?  I know you love negativity, but reality is 'it is what it is' - accept it or move on.

I think we should complain 🙂

I accepted it and will not move on 🙂 

I work in electrical/mechanical engineering company. For us it is 100 times better if our customers complain about our products than if they just throw it away and buy another brand. You will be surpised how many hidden problems/errors where fixed because our customers complained about them. 

[adan]

7 hours ago, boojum said:

Leica's decision has not worked well for them has it?

https://leicarumors.com/2018/06/22/the-latest-2017-2018-leica-financial-statements-sales-increased-for-the-fifth-year-in-a-row.aspx/

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[pedaes]

8 minutes ago, Cobram said:

I think we should complain 🙂

I accepted it and will not move on 🙂 

I work in electrical/mechanical engineering company. For us it is 100 times better if our customers complain about our products than if they just throw it away and buy another brand. You will be surpised how many hidden problems/errors where fixed because our customers complained about them. 

I am not sure who 'we' is/are. If you have a real problem, Leica will fix it. With respect, Leica has so many beta testers and others giving constant feedback from heavy use of the cameras I suspect they know all they need to know. 

Don't forget "Leica" could have pulled the M line sometime ago, so most of us will put up with odd niggles and limitations for the unique experience it provides (that said, I have had no niggles).